[taiwanluthiers]

I ordered new lenses that will hopefully fix the problem. One I got has really crap sensitivity. In the meantime I'm using a fixed 10 shade glass. It sucks because you can't see crap until you strike an arc, but not seeing spots allow me to control my arc length better.

PXL_20240101_120150818.MP.jpg (5.92 MiB) Viewed 10088 times

This one I did without filler. 1mm stainless, no pulse, 30 amps, number 8 gas lens, and 6 liters per minute gas flow. The last part sucked because I raised the arc length too much which meant the pieces didn't fuse. I just struck an arc and traveled along the length fairly slowly. Is this acceptable?

PXL_20240101_120726772.jpg (2.45 MiB) Viewed 10088 times

Backside. Steel wants to warp, not sure how to stop it. I see that PATW welded it to a thick piece of steel when doing his art thing.

Going to make another practice run on the back side.

[tweake]

a lot better. keep it up.
stainless likes to warp, tho not really a problem for practicing.

[taiwanluthiers]

I made a second run on the backside, but due to the gap (from warping) it didn't turn out anywhere near as good, in fact it looks terrible.

I also made another practice run with another plate and it also didn't turn out that well either, I ended up sugaring the backside.

The problem is I need a VERY short arc length at 32 amps or else it will not fuse (as in the top piece will simply ball away from the bottom piece). I mean an arc length of less than 0.5mm. This means I had to be careful and when I tried again, I stuck the tungsten several times which also leads to the sugaring.

I chose 32 amps because I was told stainless has low heat conductivity, and so it means they need less current than say carbon steel. But at this amperage if I don't keep a short arc, it won't work. I can use longer arc, like what is usually recommended (1.5mm to 2.5mm, basically the diameter of the tungsten), I would need to up the current to at least 50 amps in order for the pieces to fuse properly, but unless I move FAST, very fast, I will burn the metal. I found pulsing gave the best result if I want to keep a reasonable arc length.

I've noticed commercially they don't do full length welds like this at all with this gauge of steel, but rather they just do tacks, or maybe a 15mm long bead along various intervals (usually about 5cm between tacks). If they did full length lap welds or corner joints, they must either use MIG or laser welding because those come out perfect, likely done by machine. When they do tacks like this then it always look good, though I suspect a lot of electropolishing is used if they are used in the food industry.

[tweake]

I made a second run on the backside, but due to the gap (from warping) it didn't turn out anywhere near as good, in fact it looks terrible.

I also made another practice run with another plate and it also didn't turn out that well either, I ended up sugaring the backside.


I've noticed commercially they don't do full length welds like this at all with this gauge of steel, but rather they just do tacks, or maybe a 15mm long bead along various intervals (usually about 5cm between tacks). If they did full length lap welds or corner joints, they must either use MIG or laser welding because those come out perfect, likely done by machine. When they do tacks like this then it always look good, though I suspect a lot of electropolishing is used if they are used in the food industry.

just run beads on the flat plate. heaps of room for you do to that. get some practice in. get everything else sorted first. don't worry to much about the back side. keep a tight arc.

yes, if there is a gap it will pull away. typically you would use filler if there is a gap. if its small gap then you can weave side to side (or circle) and bridge the gap. this is why good fit up makes for easier welding.

it depends on what they are making. eg a tank won't hold water if its not welded fully.
they often tack first to hold everything in place, do short welds and move about to minimize distortion. also keep in mind you don't have to weld it all for it to hold together and less welding is cheaper. but otherwise long welds are commonly done by any professional welder.
they come out perfect because they practice a lot.
you will get there, one step at a time.

[taiwanluthiers]

I saw on Welding tips and trick video that they used chill bars a lot. Do professionals do this? I don't have enough aluminum around to make chill bars out of.

I also tried welding some mild steel, I don't know if it's any good though. This is 3mm thick. I welded at about 120 amps. Some sugaring on the back side. Metal also warped quite a bit. I didn't think mild steel would warp. Heat affected zone is HUGE. Weld bead is all grey, none of those golden color I've ever seen. Vertical beads are stick welds.

PXL_20240102_023709198.MP.jpg (5.04 MiB) Viewed 10024 times

[tweake]

I saw on Welding tips and trick video that they used chill bars a lot. Do professionals do this? I don't have enough aluminum around to make chill bars out of.

I also tried welding some mild steel

they certainly use chill bars. especially if its nicely machined and you can clamp them really well. it goes to crap if it warps a bit and lifts off the chill bar.

mild steel, i can't help ya there. i can't remember the last time i did steel.

[taiwanluthiers]

PXL_20240102_131226175.MP.jpg (4.1 MiB) Viewed 9984 times

This is my best attempt so far. I've found my best bet was higher than usual current, because otherwise I'm just going to need to keep an extremely tight arc to even puddle it. Seriously the higher current lets me move faster so I am not putting too much heat in it, but I can only move like half an inch at a time. Not being able to see well doesn't help because fixed lens suck, and I had to shine a very bright light on the piece so I can see it before striking an arc. I've also stuck the tungsten several times during this attempt, which is probably why it looks like poop smear after the first half inch or so. I had to stop and resharpen the tungsten.

I'm starting to get colors like pacific arc Tig weld but not the stacked dime look. I unfortunately cannot find any thicker stainless sheets, just scraps from a workshop.

Pictures below are all my failed attempt. Getting this consistent is really hard, especially on 1mm thick stock.

I also need more argon. Turns out my gauge is reading low, the actual pressure is about 20 bars higher than what it reads. My gauge reads zero but there's actually 20 bars of argon in the bottle. I took out the little bar that stops the needle when at atmospheric pressure (basically 1 bar) and if I depressurize the regulator, it goes 20 bars below zero. I can't find any adjustment to recaliberate the gauge.

PXL_20240102_131228598.jpg (3.13 MiB) Viewed 9984 times

PXL_20240102_131234684.jpg (2.88 MiB) Viewed 9984 times

PXL_20240102_131237993.jpg (2.37 MiB) Viewed 9984 times

[tweake]

keep it up your getting there.

[taiwanluthiers]

I saw this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY7CrAlWFi4

It really helps. The cold weld on my welder seems broken. When I activate it, it will throw pieces of the tungsten all over instead of giving me a weld. I am not sure why it's doing that.

This time I've decided to use pulse Tig. 100 amps, baseline of 10 amps, and it's looking much better because I'm further reducing heat input. I think pulse is made for these very thin metals. Otherwise I think you'll have to use 50 or 60 amps and move extremely fast.

I also brushed some old welds then went back over it with the same setting. Gas setting is now 8 liters per minute, post flow reduced to 3 seconds. I think as long as I'm keeping heat input under control, I don't need such long post flow and waste gas. Blue dot is trying to close a hole, this resulted in some crater and the light blue. Deep purple at the end because I've let arc length get too long (I hear a pinging sound when the pulse hits that tells me arc length is too long)

I've learned for thin stainless welds, very high current, very short bursts, is the best way. Continuous weld is bad unless I'm welding something thick. The short bursts, also reduces steel warpage.

I know pacific arc Tig weld doesn't do this, but I found I'm approaching his weld quality by taking steps to reduce heat input... Very short arc length helps massively.

Finally, tungsten is ground to a very sharp point.

High amperage and fast travel speed really helps with stainless. I'm sure the rule changes when you are welding thicker materials. But these things metal really don't like heat input.

PXL_20240103_150208299.jpg (2.94 MiB) Viewed 9899 times

PXL_20240103_150217725.jpg (2.41 MiB) Viewed 9899 times

PXL_20240103_150227006.MP.jpg (6.49 MiB) Viewed 9899 times

I figured out why the "cold weld" function keeps exploding the tungsten... There is no way to set a pre-flow, and without that pre flow the tungsten is spending that first pulse in air, and thus exploding on the first pulse. I've had to set the post flow to some really high number, do my cold weld during the post flow, then wait for the post flow to finish. This wastes gas. But I could use less than normal gas on a cold weld because the heat input is so low, that you could fine tune it to where it literally has no HAZ when welding.

[Jeff2016]

Hi,

It sounds like you've been dealing with a lot of challenges. Being in the US makes things a lot easier from a commercial side. I feel fortunate.

I'm pretty much a beginner with TIG, although I have been working off and on at it for 4 or 5 years. Lots of great advice from CJ and Tweake along the way. I'm a bit of a slow learner so I know I tried their patience at times.

I've done some practice work with stainless. The thing that's been emphasized to me is that any real color is an indication of oxidation. Maybe I haven't thought through all of the variables enough.... I just feel like anything smaller than a #10 (or even better a #12) is going to make controlling oxidation really tough.

I hate using more gas than I would like, too. The question comes down to being able to focus on other variables that aren't as simple as the area of the gas purge. You can always come back to economize on gas usage once the other variables are under better control. Just my thoughts, though.

My older eyes need all the help they can get, and clear, properly functioning lenses are a must for me. And things like the Argon regulato and the 201 filler metal are problems that should be corrected immediately just to get them out of the equation.

One curiosity question... do you have your welding setup in your home, five flights of stairs up. That would suggest to me that this welding would be done in a workshop in the home. Welding in my location is generally done in a garage. Insurers and other neighbors sometimes have trouble approving any welding in a residential setting. When carry bottles up 5 flights of stair I would assume that some people will be asking very industrial bottles will be used in a residential building. More curiosity about what can be done in these areas.

Sorry for all the questions.

Jeff

[taiwanluthiers]

No in the US everything would be harder. We do not have garage in Taiwan, we have parking lots. In Taiwan buildings are all reinforced concrete and non structural walls are brick. This isn't for looks, earthquake is a big problem here. In the US I would never be able to weld at all unless I gotten a job somewhere. I done machining and gunsmithing in apartments before. As long as no one said anything the slumlord didn't care.

Also if you're not bothering anyone, nobody cares, there's no issue with regulations or insurers.

I do like larger bottle, because the gas man (they do come deliver gas to my house) will not get it up the stairs. He suggested multiple smaller bottles instead.

I'm thinking of getting one of those hand trucks where you can pull it up stairs, and can support at least 100kg. But I'm thinking given the cost of the hand trucks and another bottle I can buy 2 more small bottles. Just have them fill it up at the station to a higher pressure.

Guys carry gas bottles weighting over 50lbs all the time up these stairs. These are propane cylinders for heating and cooking.

Just so you know, the Chinese have copies of furrick gas lenses, diffuser, and the whole nine yards. They even fit furrick hardware. Likely it was all made in china to begin with.

[cj737]

Furick cups were never made in China. They still are not. The original Miller gas lenses he contracted with Miller to make for his cups may have been, but they are no longer made by Miller and are again made in the US. The clones you buy are yet another example of intellectual property theft by the Chinese.

Plenty of people TIG weld small items in their apartments, and even run small benchtop lathes. Lots do it in their garage, workshop, sheds. There are more options here in the US for machines, materials, and consumables so that is a major advantage domestically.

[Jeff2016]

Hi Again,

It's interesting learning more about your setup.

My profession is fire protection and code consulting. I have some background with Chinese projects... sprinkler protection isn't as widely used as in North America. I think part of it is based on the building construction... concrete in particular. Still, the thought of people using LP gas or other cooking gas in cylinders in their apartments is something that I don't believe would ever be allowed. (I have experience with propane motor fuels since I was a teenager. I have a 1971 Ford Bronco now that runs on propane. There are lots of misunderstandings about it.)

Several years ago I was getting quotes to change homeowners insurance. I have a 200 A Tig welder, and two 200 +A Mig welders that are used in the garage. One company would not quote insurance because of the welders. (I would probably go through a divorce from my wife, too, if I said I wanted to do welding in the house.)

Best of luck in your learning.

Jeff

[taiwanluthiers]

A lot of people in Taiwan use propane gas cylinders to have hot showers, they use gas like crazy too and don't seem terribly efficient. The problem is that in order to use electric water heaters you'd need a service upgrade, as many electrical services in Taiwan's apartment are 50 amps or lower. Perhaps a heat pump would have offered some benefit in meeting the current restrictions, but most people just use LP gas cylinders for heating. I mean apartment I lived in Austin has gas water heaters but it's natural gas, not LP gas and nobody's allowed to touch them anyways, and I'm sure can only be installed by licensed individuals.

Those gas cylinders weight over 100lbs when full, and I seen people carry them up the stairs.

[taiwanluthiers]

PXL_20240110_130121959.jpg (129.37 KiB) Viewed 9412 times

PXL_20240110_130140876.jpg (92.4 KiB) Viewed 9412 times

1mm thick steel (this is all I got at the moment please bear with me, until I can get some thicker stuff and maybe a plasma cutter so I can actually cut them without making a huge racket), 100 amps, 2T tack, series of tacks without filler. I feel I get better result this way. Corner joint is kinda crap because I should have lowered the current a little bit to like 80 amps or something. Weld actually looks shinier when I increased the gas flow a little more (or increased the post flow to 5 sec rather than 2.5 sec). I'm using a #4 gas lens by the way.

I also discovered how to lift arc with my welder. Basically stick the tungsten right up against the work, press and hold (in 2T mode), and lift, and arc starts. It seems to know to disable the high frequency when done this way. The stray spots on the steel was me testing lift arc.

[cj737]

Your amps are way too high for 1mm. Reduce to 45 amps. 1mm is 0.039 thick. Rule for steel is 1a:1k of material thickness. You can reduce that ratio for stainless by 10-20%

[taiwanluthiers]

No you can't use that rule. If you do then your travel speed will be too low, and the heat input is too high. For anything thin like this you have to use extremely high amp and low heat application time. That rule has only helped for thicker pieces with a back purge or backing plate if less than 3mm thick (to avoid back oxidization). All the failed example I have is because I used the 40 amp per mm rule. Heat is too low and by the time you puddle you already cooked the metal. Even several video shows this.

This is why laser welding works so well for thin materials. The idea is minimize heat input.

I'm even thinking of turning the amp up, like to 120 amps, lay a thin wire over the joint, and just basically zip through the weld at very high speed, with 100 pulses a second (this tightens the arc)

[cj737]

I’m so glad you came along to teach me all the things that everyone with decades of experience knows is now incorrect. I’ve welded using that ratio much thinner than 1mm and much thicker) which is where the ratio breaks down. But you know more than I after your few weeks of welding.

Wish you best of luck. You can’t learn when you think you know everything already.

[tweake]

No you can't use that rule.

odds are your welder doesn't give you the amps it says its does. very very common problem with cheap welders, even good cheap welders.
thats why i say to ignore what the dial says. set it to what works.

i don't bother to much with numbers because i use foot pedal.

[taiwanluthiers]

Well either the number is wrong or you got some magic up your sleeves.

Yea it's possible it's only putting out 40 amps when the readout says 100, but I've found high amperage and fast travel speed worked best with thin materials.

Or would you mind showing me a video of welding 1mm at 40 amps AND without warpage or excessive heat input? I don't doubt your decades of experience but I'm sticking to what works for me, unless you can show me different.

I'm even playing around with the idea of increasing the amperage even more, and then using pulse setting at 100 pulses a second, to just zip through the joint at a higher speed and see what kind of weld I end up with.

Or you can show me a weldingtipsandtricks video on this matter?

I know penetration and stuff but how much penetration do you really need with 1mm?

[tweake]

but I'm sticking to what works for me,

exactly my point.
everyone's setup is different, so don't get hung up on the numbers. set it to whatever works for you.

btw high rate of pulsing acts like its colder, its like running at lower amps. i use that on thin material because most cheap machines don't work well at low amps and it gives me more range on the pedal.

travel speed is the big input to heating material. so faster helps. i don't recall any particular video. i think TFS has one on the subject.

[tweake]

I know penetration and stuff but how much penetration do you really need with 1mm?

as far as learning goes, you should always strive for full penetration. while a lot of actual products don't need full pen welding, you need to learn to be able to do it. its something that trips me up. but also i have had pro welders who do not get it right. i've fixed plenty of gear that broke because it wasn't welded properly.

a common stainless product is sanitary tubing, eg food. you need full pen welds so food doesn't get caught in gaps and go off, contaminating the food.

[taiwanluthiers]

Full pen welding of thin stainless results in sugaring unless you back purge them, or use a backing plate. I heard of a product called "solar flux" that you can apply to the back of the weld so that penetration doesn't result in sugaring, but not sure how it works. The problem with backing plate is that you have to clamp it down HARD so there's no gap, and that's hard to guarantee, and I've had sugaring even with aluminum backing plate simply because the metal lifted slightly when heated. I'm not sure how thick sanitary tubing is, but most kitchen fixture I've seen are all just series of tack welds at 100 amp (similar to the last picture I posted), they are then electro polished.

I've found that I could electro polish my welds by using the solution, a carbon brush and clamp it into a stinger (or use a modified collet tapped for M10 thread), yes it works and electro polishing don't need a whole lot of amps. It's just that anything more than a thin oxide layer doesn't electro polish all that well (or I heard there is a polish solution out there that actually etches away the high spots and not the low spots, instead of just etching away oxide layers). I've also read that electro polishing works the best when you just finished welding, rather than wait a few days.

[BillE.Dee]

I’m so glad you came along to teach me all the things that everyone with decades of experience knows is now incorrect. I’ve welded using that ratio much thinner than 1mm and much thicker) which is where the ratio breaks down. But you know more than I after your few weeks of welding.

Wish you best of luck. You can’t learn when you think you know everything already.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

sorry cj. I just hate when this happens

[tweake]

Full pen welding of thin stainless results in sugaring unless you back purge them, or use a backing plate. I heard of a product called "solar flux" that you can apply to the back of the weld so that penetration doesn't result in sugaring, but not sure how it works. The problem with backing plate is that you have to clamp it down HARD so there's no gap, and that's hard to guarantee, and I've had sugaring even with aluminum backing plate simply because the metal lifted slightly when heated. I'm not sure how thick sanitary tubing is, but most kitchen fixture I've seen are all just series of tack welds at 100 amp (similar to the last picture I posted), they are then electro polished.

your next step is filler and joint configuration. especially butt joints. because then its into stainless tube and yes purging is require. learn how to do purge setups and yes it uses more gas.
guys who can do full pen sanitary (typically 1.6mm) get paid a whole lot more than those tacking cheap kitchenware together. btw we have some custom commercial kitchen ware at work and its all full pen welded.
then you can also go onto pipe, high pressure code work. thats big $$$.