[Jeff2016]

Hi Gdarc21,

Mate you are so close its not funny. You need to find a way to reduce heat slightly or increase filler. This is aparrent more in the fisheye at the end. 1/16 filler is theoretically the right filler. But if you change only one thing first try going 3/32 on the filler. It may work.......it always does for me. If I cant change hand speed or go much lower amps comfortably then I up the filler diameter.
Let us know how it goes.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Working with the 16 Ga I am actually using 0.045 filler. I know that larger filler rod would help with being able to feed filler at a slower rate... but I tend to get the larger filler stuck more often than not.

I'm going to keep working with the pedal and watching the puddle to try to reduce the heat. (I'm going to ask a question of CJ in my next post, along with a picture.)

Thanks again.

Jeff

[Jeff2016]

Hi CJ,

Those “fish eyes” at the end of the weld aren’t necessarily related to the filler wire size but are more indicative of a technique flaw: snapping out of the weld.

As you approach the end of the weld, you need to “swirl” the torch or very slightly back step to avoid leaving these craters. You can also add 2x the amount of filler with a final dab just so long as you don’t crater the end.

Otherwise everything looks pretty darn good. I’m with Tweake, start welding joints. Joints teach much more about torch manipulation, heat input, and challenge your physical comfort. You’re plenty far along for flat welds, now start gluing two pieces together.

Thanks again for your help.

I understand about swirling the torch at the end of the bead. On most of the pictures with the fish eyes, I know by that time the weld is too hot and that there's not a lot I can do to help it.

Thanks for the encouragement, too. The lack of consistency is what is really driving me crazy. Until I can get rid of the overheated condition I'm kind of still focused on just running beads. Once I can get consistent with the 16 Ga and 0.045" filler, I'll focus most of my time on the joints. (I have don't some joint practice.)

I'm attaching a picture of what I'm still struggling with. The question I have is about arc length. I think I remember correctly that heat input is a function of current and travel speed. What I can't recall is arc length and how it affects the puddle. With a very short arc length does the heat input increase? In the picture you can see some of the beads that start off fairly well, and then overheat and end up with the fisheye that you and Tweake mentioned. My number one problem is that I am having trouble "seeing" when that happens. I'm working on different positions for my helmet to see if that will help.

The question I have about arc length is what is bugging me the most. I am reasonable certain that I am keeping the arc length is fairly short. I think you may have mentioned in a PM to me, that with a sharp point on the tungsten, the arc will actually jump off the tungsten higher up from the point. In the case where I have a very short arc I'm thinking the point of the tungsten may actually be a lot closer to the puddle than what it should be (pretty close to touching). I hope it makes sense the way I described it. I was thinking if the arc is really coming from higher up the tungsten, then perhaps I should dull the point on the tungsten? Or, maybe I should just focus on a longer arc length? (I think I'm using too many words to describe this so I'll just leave it at this and if I left anything out, you can ask me to clarify.)

Thanks again.

Jeff

[cj737]

That’s a bit of a rambling post… so I’ll try to dissect what I think you were asking as it relates to what I see in your welds.

The welds are fine. They appear to be welded with a proper arc length. The overheating is a function of material thickness and time spent welding. The thinner the material, the less time you can weld on it before it becomes saturated. You then have to quench it (only during practice mind you!) or you have to wait until it cools naturally.

I admire your ambition to master the hard things first, but in reality you are causing yourself unneeded anxiety by welding with 0.045 and 16ga. Learn to weld on thicker material with thicker filler. For most hobby welding, 3/32 tungstens and 3/32 (sometimes 0.063) filler are the go to. I would wager that I weld about 12-15x more 3/32 filler than 1/8, and probably 45x more 3/32 than 1/16. You simply dab less in with larger filler and get the benefit of having puddle heat control if you need it.

As to “seeing it happen” on the heat saturation, that only comes from experience. The total number of things your eyes will see while welding are: puddle size, puddle condition (too hot, too cold, sluggish, etc) line of travel, width of puddle (joints) arc length, torch angle, and base metal heat condition (how close to saturation or blow-out are you). Oh, and the end of the filler wire and how much is being introduced each dab. The point is: there is tons to see, everything matters, and you can’t master all these variables at once.

So eliminate some of the challenges and give yourself a fighting chance to weld some joints, get some success, and learn in “real world settings”. Welding stringer beads on flat plate is decent practice for an absolute beginner, but you’re past that now. Put those spindly bits down and start gluing some 1/8” material together. Lap joints, butt joints, t joints.

You will discover how much closer to “capable” you are once you attack some joints and abandon the flat pieces. And FFS, who cares if your beads aren’t perfect like Instagram heroes? Those guys have doing this shit for decades, daily, all day long. As long as the weld is strong, that matters most. Aesthetics can be brought to bear later.

Now ditch the keyboard, drop your hood, and light that sucker up!

[Jeff2016]

Hi CJ,

I really do understand what you're saying about the thinner material being more of a challenge.

I've got the time now, and the thinner material, so as long as I don't aggravate you guys with my questions, I'll probably go a little further with the thin stuff. I know what you mean, too, about real world being on the heavier side. Right, wrong, or otherwise, I kind of feel that if I can't control the bead better on thin flat stock, I haven't really gotten the basics down.

I'll probably give myself another day or two on the thin stuff so to see if things start clicking. I just don't want to give up since I've gotten this far. I may not have the skills to figure this out without doing as you suggest with the thicker metal. I'll just feel like I am quitting if I don't keep after the thin material a little longer. And if I do that now, it will be hard to come back to later. Surprisingly, I'm not as frustrated as I normally get with this kind of challenge. With all the advice you and others have given, I figure I'm just a slow learner.

I know I'll likely never have the skills a lot of you do; but, if I can keep learning from you guys, it will all be good! (I wait to post more until I tackle the joints, unless something comes up that really puzzles me. Just knowing that I am kind of close is satisfying.)

Thanks again.

Jeff

[Jeff2016]

Hey Guys,

I did run a couple of butt joints on 16 Ga, since that's what I had out at the time.

I know it started off cold.

I know I got a little too much heat.

One picture is the front side, the other is the back. (Hopefully they will stay oriented correctly. The travel was from right to left.)

Thanks,

Jeff

[tweake]

Hey Guys,

I did run a couple of butt joints on 16 Ga, since that's what I had out at the time.

I know it started off cold.

I know I got a little too much heat.

One picture is the front side, the other is the back. (Hopefully they will stay oriented correctly. The travel was from right to left.)

Thanks,

Jeff

actually its to cold all the way through, which is why the material overheats.
sounds weird, but travel speed is the biggest factor in heating up your part, and travel speed is dictated a fair bit by how many amps your running.
as the penetration sucks on that, your running the amps way to low, that means your travel speed slows down, which makes the material heat up more.

test your amps first by just by doing a few quick tacks. see if it penetrates all the way trough. up the amps until it easily penetrates. then weld and try and keep up with the puddle.
it just takes practise.

[cj737]

Try to create a very small gap in the joint when you butt weld. It will make getting penetration through the piece easier and make it easier to use the thicker wire to put enough heat in, and still control the puddle with dipping to cool it off.

[Jeff2016]

Hi Tweake,

actually its to cold all the way through, which is why the material overheats.
sounds weird, but travel speed is the biggest factor in heating up your part, and travel speed is dictated a fair bit by how many amps your running.
as the penetration sucks on that, your running the amps way to low, that means your travel speed slows down, which makes the material heat up more.

test your amps first by just by doing a few quick tacks. see if it penetrates all the way trough. up the amps until it easily penetrates. then weld and try and keep up with the puddle.
it just takes practise.

Thanks again.

I'm running 65A at the box. When tacking the coupons together, one end actually burned through. I probably backed off on the pedal intentionally to keep the weld from getting too hot.

What's a little confusing to me is that I recently watched a video that showed a 16 Ga weld that looked similar. It had a defined heat affected zone; but, it didn't have a continuous fusing between plates shown on the back side. I thought it was an example of a good weld for thin metal; but, I sure could have misunderstood it.

I'll try another couple of welds with more pedal this week.

Take Care,

Jeff

[Jeff2016]

Thanks CJ,

Try to create a very small gap in the joint when you butt weld. It will make getting penetration through the piece easier and make it easier to use the thicker wire to put enough heat in, and still control the puddle with dipping to cool it off.

With the gap, are you using something like an aluminum chill bar? With the thin stock I have been using a scrap piece of 1/4" aluminum as a backing. I have some 1" smaller footprint aluminum that I can use, too.

Thanks,

Jeff

[cj737]

You can, but that is not the point of the approach. The gap need only be a few thousandths wide to allow the arc/filler to push through. And having a gap will force you to control the puddle without blowing out the edges.

[Jeff2016]

Hi CJ,

You can, but that is not the point of the approach. The gap need only be a few thousandths wide to allow the arc/filler to push through. And having a gap will force you to control the puddle without blowing out the edges.

Thanks. I understand.

Jeff

[Jeff2016]

Hi Guys,

I felt like it was kind of like taking a step backwards... but, I went ahead and started back on the 1/8" cold rolled steel.

Attached are pictures of one of the first lap joints. 120 A, 1/16" ER70S6 filler, and 20 cfh of Argon.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Jeff2016]

Hey Again,

I've watched the video that Jody put together regarding current and travel speed.

For thinner material, like the 16 Ga, is it wrong to think that I can reduce the heat input by lowering the current along with increasing travel speed, or should I just work on really moving along with the amperage based on the rule of thumb (1 amp per 0.001")?

Moving along at a faster pace is what's really going to be a challenge until I get more burn time.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Gdarc21]

Those pics look pretty good. Your starts and finish need just a bit more time.
The arc starts then you get a puddle with both sides, then you move at comfortable pace. When you finish double dab filler swirl and let button go or if using lift arc double dab filler, swirl, drag out of pool and snap out. Otherwise it looks ok. And your steel is nice clean and the weld shows it.
In regards to your other post on gas calc, i know that thread is over there but its too far to bother going there so I will mention it here
The bottles CfH total divide by what cfh your using should equal hours in a tank. Then I usually times that by .7cause I am only arcing 70 percent of the time Im in the shed at the weld stage of a project. Thats easy enough to get you a ballpark figure.

[cj737]

Hey Again,

I've watched the video that Jody put together regarding current and travel speed.

For thinner material, like the 16 Ga, is it wrong to think that I can reduce the heat input by lowering the current along with increasing travel speed, or should I just work on really moving along with the amperage based on the rule of thumb (1 amp per 0.001")?

Moving along at a faster pace is what's really going to be a challenge until I get more burn time.

Thanks,

Jeff

You can run slightly lower without causing too much trouble, but what you aren’t understanding is the filler is crucial to heat control. Every dab you make cools the puddle. So on the 1/8” examples above, with 3/32 filler you’d get better welds (better profile) won’t be starving the puddle for filler (risk over-heating and edge burn off) and you could run 120 amps under control without having to hustle to keep up with the smaller filler.

If you insist upon using 1/16 filler, stuff it in there about 2x as much as you do until the bead profile is fuller.

[Jeff2016]

Hi Gdarc21,

Those pics look pretty good. Your starts and finish need just a bit more time.
The arc starts then you get a puddle with both sides, then you move at comfortable pace. When you finish double dab filler swirl and let button go or if using lift arc double dab filler, swirl, drag out of pool and snap out. Otherwise it looks ok. And your steel is nice clean and the weld shows it.
In regards to your other post on gas calc, i know that thread is over there but its too far to bother going there so I will mention it here
The bottles CfH total divide by what cfh your using should equal hours in a tank. Then I usually times that by .7cause I am only arcing 70 percent of the time Im in the shed at the weld stage of a project. Thats easy enough to get you a ballpark figure.

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep at it.

As far as the Argon goes, I'm at 800 psi right now. I know with the 150 cf S tank, that would give me about 3 hours of gas flow. With the 337 cf T tank, I'm wondering if I'd be looking at about 6 hours at 800 psi being that the tank is about double the capacity. (I'm just not sure if it's kind of a linear relationship, or if there's more involved.)

Thanks,

Jeff

[Jeff2016]

Hi CJ,

You can run slightly lower without causing too much trouble, but what you aren’t understanding is the filler is crucial to heat control. Every dab you make cools the puddle. So on the 1/8” examples above, with 3/32 filler you’d get better welds (better profile) won’t be starving the puddle for filler (risk over-heating and edge burn off) and you could run 120 amps under control without having to hustle to keep up with the smaller filler.

If you insist upon using 1/16 filler, stuff it in there about 2x as much as you do until the bead profile is fuller.

I do understand about the cooling that the filler rod provides.

I'm not trying to be stubborn... it's just that I have more problems with the larger diameter filler. The most serious problem is that when I add the filler it tends to push the puddle up... and into the tungsten. The second problem is the the larger filler doesn't melt into the puddle as quickly and my timing isn't the best yet, so when I try to draw the filler from the puddle, it sticks pretty often. It could be that taking you guys' advice about running hotter will prevent the sticking of the filler.

I know a lot of this will come with experience... I'm just trying not to develop any bad habits.

One last comment about running with higher current. It's kind of a mental block, I guess. The practice of moving the torch/tungsten/puddle, then stopping, adding filler, pulling the filler back a little and then moving the puddle again just seems like it will make the puddle/base metal hotter. I find myself wanting to continuously move the torch and then time my dabs. (With the lap joints today, I was probably using more lay wire technique than dabbing... which probably isn't a good thing at the moment.)

I'm not sure that I have any 1/8" filler (or 3/32") in the garage. I'll check tomorrow. If I don't have any, I'll get some and give it a good try.

Thanks,

Jeff

[cj737]

Okay, Jeff, here’s a great way for you to develop some muscle coordination:

Flat stock. Scribe 2 parallel lines about 3/32” apart along the length of your material. Practice adding filler until it fills the lines.
Once you get that down, the next iteration is to repeat the scribing, but then to add incremental cross lines about 1/8” along. This will represent the movement distance of the torch, the puddle size, and help you develop a coordinated and visual association of how much filler to add.

Use 1/16 filler for the first stage of the drill, use 3/32 for the second stage.

Establish the puddle, add filler, withdraw filler from puddle, move torch the distance, pause, add filler, withdraw filler, move torch. It’s a ballet of all your appendages and eyes and a heap of electricity.

It’s perfectly normal for the puddle to grow when filler is added. If it’s growing too much, you simply taper the duration of the filler add or how deep into the puddle you stuff the filler. The scribed lines will really help you to appreciate the relationship between the filler and puddle in terms of ratio.

You can do this drill on any material, any width lines as you practice with different filler amounts, and it also helps you in terms of keeping your weld beads “in line” with your intended destination.

[Jeff2016]

Hi CJ,

Okay, Jeff, here’s a great way for you to develop some muscle coordination:

Flat stock. Scribe 2 parallel lines about 3/32” apart along the length of your material. Practice adding filler until it fills the lines.
Once you get that down, the next iteration is to repeat the scribing, but then to add incremental cross lines about 1/8” along. This will represent the movement distance of the torch, the puddle size, and help you develop a coordinated and visual association of how much filler to add.

Use 1/16 filler for the first stage of the drill, use 3/32 for the second stage.

Establish the puddle, add filler, withdraw filler from puddle, move torch the distance, pause, add filler, withdraw filler, move torch. It’s a ballet of all your appendages and eyes and a heap of electricity.

It’s perfectly normal for the puddle to grow when filler is added. If it’s growing too much, you simply taper the duration of the filler add or how deep into the puddle you stuff the filler. The scribed lines will really help you to appreciate the relationship between the filler and puddle in terms of ratio.

You can do this drill on any material, any width lines as you practice with different filler amounts, and it also helps you in terms of keeping your weld beads “in line” with your intended destination.

Great advice. I'll give it a go.

I appreciate all the detail you provided... definitely easy to understand.

I'm not sure I'll be able to spend much time until the weekend. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Jeff2016]

Hi Guys,

Can someone tell me what is causing the defect shown on the attached picture? Is it only because of the high heat (yes, I know it is much too hot), or could this also be due to the tungsten being too close to the puddle? (The line in the center of the of the weld is what I am interested in.)

Thanks,

Jeff

[Gdarc21]

When you get that line in the weld its a good indication that you need less heat or more filler. The fish eye at the end, regardless of other reasons is also an indication that you need more fill ans especially at the end. It appears your filler feed isnt keeping up with your heat, if you just moved slower it would be a right mess so you need to tune your heat to match your hand speed vice versa.

On a side note if you get that line in a mig weld then you need to add more amps/ wire. That line isnt devasting but it is a good indication that you are close to limit of how low your filler can be and vibrations on some parts can often lead to it cracking on that line if the underlying gap is too wide. Just a bit of info.

Going forward bro, drop amps and try again or move up a filler stick size.
The weld is what matters, all the guides make it easier to get a ballpark but you can modify guidelines as needed.

[Jeff2016]

Hi Gdarc,

When you get that line in the weld its a good indication that you need less heat or more filler. The fish eye at the end, regardless of other reasons is also an indication that you need more fill ans especially at the end. It appears your filler feed isnt keeping up with your heat, if you just moved slower it would be a right mess so you need to tune your heat to match your hand speed vice versa.

On a side note if you get that line in a mig weld then you need to add more amps/ wire. That line isnt devasting but it is a good indication that you are close to limit of how low your filler can be and vibrations on some parts can often lead to it cracking on that line if the underlying gap is too wide. Just a bit of info.

Going forward bro, drop amps and try again or move up a filler stick size.
The weld is what matters, all the guides make it easier to get a ballpark but you can modify guidelines as needed.

Thanks for your reply.

Your advice makes sense.

I'm running 63A on the welder and using the pedal to reduce the heat when it starts to get out of control.

I know that some of the guys here have good advice moving up to thicker metal to get good with first. I'm just determined/stubborn to be more consistent with the 16 Ga. Some days the coordination of everything just doesn't work...

Maybe just a bit of refresher... Does the height of the arc above the workpiece tend to establish how wide the bead is?

And, does a shorter arc (tungsten closer to the workpiece) generate more heat in the workpiece for the same amperage and travel speed?

Thanks again.

Jeff

[cj737]

Distance of the tungsten does effect the “heat affected zone”. It actually causes a hotter weld because the arc is less focused on the weld line.

The closer the arc, the more control of the heat, the less HAZ.

For thinner material, don’t “romp” on the pedal to create the puddle. Just enough to initiate the arc, then smoothly increase the heat to get your puddle started. Start adding filler, then watch when you can taper the heat (pedal) because on thin metal, it absorbs too much heat pretty quickly.

As an example, start with about 20 amps, get your puddle (around 50-55 amps), start dabbing and moving (60ish amps). After about 1-1/2” inches, you can probably start working back towards the low 50s on the amps. Finishing (eliminating the fish eyes) around 25-30 with one final extra dab.

[Oscar]

Maybe just a bit of refresher... Does the height of the arc above the workpiece tend to establish how wide the bead is ?

Yes, but that is also a function of time, and torch angle.

And, does a shorter arc (tungsten closer to the workpiece) generate more heat in the workpiece for the same amperage and travel speed?

Thanks again.

Jeff

No, it generates less heat (because the voltage is lower and the heat input is related to the wattage, aka volts x amps), BUT don't confuse that with not being able to produce a molten weld pool; IOW it doesn't mean that it isn't as effective, because it is not significantly less, and the shorter arc length changes the shape of the arc cone (a little narrower), and thus it will be more concentrated over a smaller area, so the power density (watts per square mm²) can still be high enough to create sufficient heat to produce a molten weld pool. All that science talk aside, if you can maintain a consistent arc length equal to approximately one tungsten-diameter, you'll be fine for pretty much any scenario you will encounter.

[Jeff2016]

Hi CJ,

Distance of the tungsten does effect the “heat affected zone”. It actually causes a hotter weld because the arc is less focused on the weld line.

The closer the arc, the more control of the heat, the less HAZ.

For thinner material, don’t “romp” on the pedal to create the puddle. Just enough to initiate the arc, then smoothly increase the heat to get your puddle started. Start adding filler, then watch when you can taper the heat (pedal) because on thin metal, it absorbs too much heat pretty quickly.

As an example, start with about 20 amps, get your puddle (around 50-55 amps), start dabbing and moving (60ish amps). After about 1-1/2” inches, you can probably start working back towards the low 50s on the amps. Finishing (eliminating the fish eyes) around 25-30 with one final extra dab.

That's great information. Thanks for all the detail. The last paragraph is especially helpful.

My work is picking up, so I'll need to make sure to carve out time on a regular basis to keep working to get better.

Thanks,

Jeff