Welding Tips and Tricks

Hi Guys:

I don't have a welder yet, but plan on getting a stick welder soon. It will be either a Hobart Stickmate XL 235AC/160DC (transformer) from my local Fleet Farm for $444.99, an Everlast PowerArc 200 (200 amp DC only inverter) for $300, or a Longevity Stickweld 250 (250 amp DC only inverter) for $300.00.

After burning through maybe 20 pounds of rods as I learn a bit about stick welding, an ATV log arch, similar to the one below, will be my first project. The retail price for this Hud-Son ATV log arch is $725.00 plus shipping. This one is bolted together, but I would weld it together. There is no place around here to do any scrounging. So..... look at the picture and give me your best guesstimate (just a quick ballpark figure) of the total material cost using all new material. I don't know what size the square tubing is, you guys can help me out there. Besides the square tubing, notice the 2000 pound hand winch on top, the tong hitch, and the axles and tires. I would add a few cross pieces to brace it a bit more. So just to be safe, you can fudge a little on the high side. So are we talking $200, $300, $400? What say you all?

The welds ain't gonna be pretty (but hopefully they'll be strong). And if it breaks, it breaks. But no one will get hurt (I'll be going less than 5 MPH), and I'll learn from the experience. I'm hoping the saving on this first project will pay for the welder.

Thanks guys for your thoughtful replies.

Don <><

Hard to get dimensions from the picture, im guessin the whole thing is about 3 foot square?

Your probably lookin at 100-150 bucks of steel. After that it gets a little more complicated. Theres a couple differant ways to do your axles, from building your own axle to just bolting a couple wheels to the side of the frame like the picture.

I would think you could get the come along for under 100 bucks from harbor freight or somewhere similar. I have no idea about the tongue, if it was me I would buy an old trailer off of craigslist or the junkyard and just convert it. Worse to worst yuo could cut the damn thing up and use the steel to build your rig there.

Hi kermdawg

So you think I could buy all the steel square tubing for around $150.00. What size square tubing would you recommend? And do I have to use some kind of special steel?
Would something like the square tubing below work? Would this be over-kill, or under-kill? I guess what I'm asking is how thick should the walls be?

I found a place that has 20 foot lengths of 3" X 3" X 3/8" angle iron for $105.00. Or is this over-kill?
(I keep editing my post just as you're answering it.)

Don <><

The more I look at it the more I dont see the need for square tubing honestly. If It were me I'd use 1/8" angle iron, or maybe even 3/16". Its impossible to tell the thickness of the tubing from the pictures, but it couldnt be thicker than 1/8". If you bolt it together you almost -have- to use square tubing, but if you weld it you can just use some decent thickness angle and it'll be just as good if not better.Of course if you wanted to use square tubing you could, it might even be cheaper I dont know.

You dont have to use any kind of special metal, just good old mild steel. Just give it a good layer of paint or two to protect it from rust and it should last you quite a while.

All I could find on their website about the dimensions and spec was-

Overall Height - 38" - Overall Width - Overall Length - 83" Log Opening 28" w x 28" H

Than again it says it weighs 185 pounds.

6 ft. of 2"x1/8" angle at homedepot is 25 bucks. 4 ft of 2"x3/16" is 24 bucks. I just use home depot for a nationwide baseline, im sure you can get way better prices if you go to a actual steel yard. But it'll give you a good, high ballpark.

edit-Saw your pic of the tubing after I posted. Thats some serious overkill brotha But at least you know it would never break! I dont think you need anything thicker than 3/16" myself, but you might wanna play it safe and go 1/4". But anything above that would be overdoin it.

kermdawg wrote: Saw your pic of the tubing after I posted. Thats some serious overkill brotha But at least you know it would never break! I dont think you need anything thicker than 3/16" myself, but you might wanna play it safe and go 1/4". But anything above that would be overdoin it.

So if I go with square tubing at 1/4" wall thickness, should I use 2" or 3" tubing?

Would 3" X 3" X 3/16" angle iron be OK? Or should I use something smaller?

Thanks fer your very helpful input kermdawg <><

Don

So if I go with square tubing at 1/4" wall thickness, should I use 2" or 3" tubing?

Would 3" X 3" X 3/16" angle iron be OK? Or should I use something smaller?

I would think for your application 2" square tubing x 1/4" would be plenty. 3"x3/16" angle would also be pretty beefy. I think the weak point here isnt going to be the steel or the welds its going to be the tires and axle. My best guess from the picture you provided is the original trailer is about 1-1/2" by about 1/8" thick square tubing, so your already going stronger than what you would pay all that money for, which is a good thing if you ask me.

See if you can= email the company and get the dimensions of their tubing and axles. Thats what I would do if it were me.

kermdawg wrote:

I think the weak point here isnt going to be the steel or the welds its going to be the tires and axle.

I agree with you kermdawg. Those stubby little axles are gonna have to be welded on and/or bolted on pretty good.

Between square tubing and angle iron, which one is easier to weld on? Or doesn't it matter.

Don <><

Well, in my opinion angle iron is easier to weld on. All you gotta do to make a corner joint is notch one side of the angle, fit it up and weld it out. If you go with square tubing your not going to have the slip over joints like the one in the picture, your just gonna have square corners. Your cuts will have to be pretty square, not a big problem if you have some sort of bench saw.

As for the axle, if it was me I would add another piece of steel across the bottom on the back, or maybe even in the center. Then I'd fashion a axle out of some round tubing, weld on a couple flanges on the ends and put the studs on those. Then that axle would be rock solid, but of course you would lose a bit of ground clearance. May or may not be an issue depending on what kind of terrain your usin the thing on.

kermdawg wrote:As for the axle, if it was me I would add another piece of steel across the bottom on the back, or maybe even in the center.

The center has to be kept clear as that's where the log goes.
Watch this video to see an atv log arch in actual use: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJoPemfV5zI
The one I wanna build isn't exactly like the one in the video, but they're all pretty much the same.

Don,

About a year ago I had build a log skidder for a friend of mine for about $200. It is a little different that what you have pictured but none the less simular, like this one:


If you would decide to change to something like this I would have some design changes based on what I found but I could send you images of the design, drawings, and even 3D if you wanted me to.

I used the following:
honda civic spindles and wheels 50$
2x3 .125 wall tubing 78.50$
Trailer coupling 13.95
Some 1.5" round and some plate I had laying around that was cut on a friends CNC plasma $?
3 cans rustoleum paint 15$
Chains and pins 20$

I think if you scrounge around you should be able to do this project for about 250 since your design needs a winch.



Let me know,

Joe <><

From my perspective the weak point will be the attachment of the axles. Without a suspension wheels passing over uneven ground will transfer a lot of stress to the single point axles. I recommend a "U" shaped fork with a single attachment point above the center line of the wheel. That however would still be susceptible to side loads. Even better would be to have a support on both sides of the axle that extends to the top of the frame.

av8r wrote:From my perspective the weak point will be the attachment of the axles. Without a suspension wheels passing over uneven ground will transfer a lot of stress to the single point axles. I recommend a "U" shaped fork with a single attachment point above the center line of the wheel. That however would still be susceptible to side loads. Even better would be to have a support on both sides of the axle that extends to the top of the frame.

I think I know what you mean av8r, and I agree. That gives me some design ideas.
See pic below with both axles supported on both sides of the axle, and some additional supports.
I would add even more supports to lessen the twisting of the axle assembly.


Thanks a bunch !

Don <><

junkyardjoe wrote:Don,

If you would decide to change to something like this I would have some design changes based on what I found but I could send you images of the design, drawings, and even 3D if you wanted me to.

Let me know,

Joe <><

Hi Joe:
I sent you a private message with my email address. I would appreciate any drawings you can furnish. This rookie needs all the help he can get.

Don <><

Don,

Just saw your PM, will send you the info when I get home. . . currently in the great state of Nebraska . . .

You guys are right in locating the high stress of these cantilevered spindle designs, however, I was able to do some quick and dirty finite element analysis on my design and all looked well within spec, when I get back on monday I will look this info up again and post it up.

Thanks,

1/4 inch thick wall square tube is pretty heavy. I think you could save some weight (and some $$$) and go with 1/8th inch wall, like above. If you don't think it would be strong enough, you could always x brace the top a little more. I've built narrow gauge railroad car frames out of 1/8th inch wall and they've held up very well and stayed fairly lightweight.

You should be able to build it for about half the cost of the catalog if you don't factor in your own labor cost.

1/4" wall is WAY too heavy for this unless you're planning on skidding 40' timbers. seeing as it's a bumper pull deal, I'd go with 2" 1/8" wall square tubing for the main frame and brace the outside of the wheels with 2" 1/8" angle. the angle is dirt cheap, but the sq tubing will give you more rigidity. personally, I'd miter all the corners, too, but that's just me. I'd also recommend using the biggest wheels you can. it will make dragging the logs a whole lot easier.