[TraditionalToolworks]

The gouging is normal for 6010. Its part of the arc and its characteristic. One just has to work it and use it to their advantage to get really good (deep) fusion between the two parts.

That makes sense, but makes me ponder...I'm fairly new to 6010, I haven't run it until recently. I have seen people claim that 6010 runs smooth as butter for them, so I don't get that...I have long heard people like Bob Moffet and Jody Collier say it's a much harsher arc that tends to splatter, so how do people get this "smooth as butter" 6010 arc, or are they full of it?

I can literally see under the puddle that the metal is being evacuated by the arc as I move the puddle, but after it's all said and done there is weld metal in the material. I haven't tried to cut-n-etch anything, have you?

[Poland308]

Your not pushing the rod in deep enough. It’s no way ne’er smooth as butter. But you will literally feel the rod dragging on the base metal. If your getting undercut it’s most likely travel speed and arc length issues.

[Oscar]

Smoother than 6011 perhaps, but not smooth as butter like lo-hy or rutile rods. I wouldn't say they're "full of it"; more so a different prerogative/point of view.

I haven't cut-n-etch 6010, but I suspect it would be somewhere in between shirt-circuit-MIG and spray-arc-MIG when it comes to the fusion depth, but of course that is completely dependent on the joint configuration.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Smoother than 6011 perhaps, but not smooth as butter like lo-hy or rutile rods. I wouldn't say they're "full of it"; more so a different prerogative/point of view.

I haven't cut-n-etch 6010, but I suspect it would be somewhere in between shirt-circuit-MIG and spray-arc-MIG when it comes to the fusion depth, but of course that is completely dependent on the joint configuration.

The reason I was asking is that I can visually see the arc blowing out metal underneath the puddle as I whip-n-pause. I suspect the void fills in with metal from the rod, but as I suggested I have never done a cut and etch on the material. Looks pretty solid after it cools, so I suspect it filled in. I have never had any 601x rod run as smooth as 7018, or other rutile rods like 6013. My experience has always been a fairly harsh arc, so certainly my point of view seems different from some others I've read.

I don't have much reason to run anything other than 601x/7018, to be honest.

[av8or1]

The reason I was asking is that I can visually see the arc blowing out metal underneath the puddle as I whip-n-pause. I suspect the void fills in with metal from the rod, but as I suggested I have never done a cut and etch on the material. Looks pretty solid after it cools, so I suspect it filled in. I have never had any 601x rod run as smooth as 7018, or other rutile rods like 6013. My experience has always been a fairly harsh arc, so certainly my point of view seems different from some others I've read.

Yeah +1 for the 6010 being a rod that will gouge as a part of its normal MO. I like that aspect of it however because I know it is penetrating well. The 6010/11 is a fast-freeze rod, as you are likely aware, and this is the reason you do the whip-n-pause thing. When you move out of the puddle or towards the edge of it depending on how far your whip may be, the portion that is left behind "freezes" quickly. Then when you return you fill it in. The longer you hold for the fill, the higher the bead will be. I did the cut-n-etch on the 6010 and was impressed. When the material is beveled prior to welding, boy, that rod will penetrate quite far. Much will depend on the material thickness, the bevel and the land, but the 6010 truly "gets in there." I recall a few times during the gantry build that I had gone a little hog-wild with the beveling and the 6010 blew clear through what remained. So when I moved the rod back after the whip, I would just pause in that spot a little longer in order to close the hole and fill the crater. I didn't mind that, 'cause it was the operator's issue (me) due to aggressive beveling. That said, I'd rather go that route than not enough, so I didn't complain about that either, in the end. Most of the time though the beveling was just right and there was no blow through. I digress.

In short, the 6010/11 is indeed a "harsh" arc, but I think that's putting it mildly. To me it is a violent arc and quite different from the subdued sizzle of a 7018. Thus the reason I always do a 6010 pass for the root and hot, assuming that the component in question will serve in any structural capacity.

I don't have much reason to run anything other than 601x/7018, to be honest.

Ditto.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Yeah +1 for the 6010 being a rod that will gouge as a part of its normal MO. I like that aspect of it however because I know it is penetrating well. The 6010/11 is a fast-freeze rod, as you are likely aware, and this is the reason you do the whip-n-pause thing. When you move out of the puddle or towards the edge of it depending on how far your whip may be, the portion that is left behind "freezes" quickly. Then when you return you fill it in. The longer you hold for the fill, the higher the bead will be.

Ok, I guess that makes sense, I never really thought about it filling in the void when you go back and pause. It is when I move forward that I can visually see the void as it's being evacuated out.

I mainly wanted to use it for dirty, rusty and even painted material so I didn't have to clean it all up. Things outdoors like my flat bed which is all rusty, or the sawmill which the bed is sitting out in the elements...it's pretty rusty in some spots also...the 601x rod will blow through the $#!T saving time.

In short, the 6010/11 is indeed a "harsh" arc, but I think that's putting it mildly. To me it is a violent arc and quite different from the subdued sizzle of a 7018. Thus the reason I always do a 6010 pass for the root and hot, assuming that the component in question will serve in any structural capacity.

7018, "the sizzle is the shizzle!"

My favorite rod of all, even though I know it's low hydrogen and I don't have an oven, it's stronger and more ductile than 601x rod or any others I have used. Always looks a trillion when you get a good bead.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Even the crappiest inverters can usually run 7018 OK. I'd be interested to see what it does with cellulose rods. I had an AHP unit that ran 7018 OK, but with 1/8th 6011 at 80 amps, it would chew through 3/8ths plate like a carbon arc gouging rod. I would have to turn the amps way down to like 40, to even get it close to running right. That was the reason I got rid of it. The arc force was not adjustable and it was all screwed up if you ask me.

Louie,

Interesting to see this video last night, I have seen it in the past just forgot about it. This is running an AHP, and Bob Moffet can't get it to run 6010 very well at all, the arc wouldn't stay lit, although it would with 6011. Bob does test a bunch of different rod on the AHP, but in the video also notes that it has no Arc Force / Dig either, so very similar to the Primeweld, no settings for stick welding other than amperage. Also interesting to note he is able to change the frequency on AC running stick, and I've seen that done on the Primeweld in the past, although I can't remember exactly where. I give the stick edge to the Primeweld after watching this video again.

bjB0I3HXIVc

[sbaker56]

I've found if a machine will run 6010 it'll also run 6011 quite nicely, while I do prefer 6010 as I've found it's often more consistent/higher quality between brands and slightly smoother, In my experience 6011 will still run better on a 6010 friendly machine than it will on most machines that can't run 6010.

Even some budget supposedly 6010 friendly machines struggle.

H6VBgYVxwwA

[Oscar]

I've found if a machine will run 6010 it'll also run 6011 quite nicely, while I do prefer 6010 as I've found it's often more consistent/higher quality between brands and slightly smoother, In my experience 6011 will still run better on a 6010 friendly machine than it will on most machines that can't run 6010.

Even some budget supposedly 6010 friendly machines struggle.

H6VBgYVxwwA

There was too much resistance in the electrode holder and ground clamp because they got hot. Right VA Sawyer?

[sbaker56]

I've found if a machine will run 6010 it'll also run 6011 quite nicely, while I do prefer 6010 as I've found it's often more consistent/higher quality between brands and slightly smoother, In my experience 6011 will still run better on a 6010 friendly machine than it will on most machines that can't run 6010.

Even some budget supposedly 6010 friendly machines struggle.

H6VBgYVxwwA

There was too much resistance in the electrode holder and ground clamp because they got hot. Right VA Sawyer?

Funny enough a classmate has the same machine and brought it to class, It did the same thing, so it definitely wasn't an isolated event.

I'm still kind of amazed they used that excuse, while connections can come loose and that wouldn't necessarily be the fault of the MFG, it's awfully embarrassing to blame the quality of their own leads for an issue. Not to mention if your clamps were getting so hot the resistance was significantly changing, they'd probably be on fire.

[TraditionalToolworks]

I've found if a machine will run 6010 it'll also run 6011 quite nicely, while I do prefer 6010 as I've found it's often more consistent/higher quality between brands and slightly smoother, In my experience 6011 will still run better on a 6010 friendly machine than it will on most machines that can't run 6010.

Even some budget supposedly 6010 friendly machines struggle.

Interesting video, Moffet's beads didn't look too great there, so it does kind of point to the machine.

Actually makes me all the more surprised that my Primeweld runs 6010 and 6011. There were times where it tried to go out on my once or twice, but not like that. I ordered some 5P+ so I'll see when it gets here. I do have some 6011, but Fleetweld 180 is the only thing I can get locally without buying it by 50 lbs. Burns ok, but some have said they don't care for it.

I'd like to try Esab Sureweld 6011, but unless the 5P+ has a difficult time running, I probably won't be getting it anytime too soon as I'll have 10 lbs. of 5P+.

Interesting how Moffet shows turning the Arc Force down entirely seemed to act so different, and seemed it was better. So, I don't get that too much, 6010 is supposed to need Arc Force.

The more I see about the Everlast machines, the less impressed I am with them. I don't spend all my time stick welding, and have considered them to be one of the better inexpensive machines that supports 6010, but the Everlast line is not very impressive in general, IMO. The machine I'd really like to replace my green weenie with is the Esab Miniarc Rouge 180i. I would only do that if I sold my Everlast first. I may put it up for sale on craigslist and see if I get any bites.

[sbaker56]

Arc force can make things a lot more forgiving, but remember a lot of famously excellent stick machines like an Idealarc 250 don't even have any option for arc force or hot start. As you've noticed how 6011 and 6011 wants to excaviate a crater, sometimes cranking the arc force up, especially if you're running on the higher side of the amp range can make things get a little iffy. If you've done much tacking, especially when you've got the stinger in one hand at an abnormal angle while you're trying to hold the part in place with your other hand, that's where I really like arc force to avoid just sticking your electrode over and over.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Arc force can make things a lot more forgiving, but remember a lot of famously excellent stick machines like an Idealarc 250 don't even have any option for arc force or hot start. As you've noticed how 6011 and 6011 wants to excaviate a crater, sometimes cranking the arc force up, especially if you're running on the higher side of the amp range can make things get a little iffy. If you've done much tacking, especially when you've got the stinger in one hand at an abnormal angle while you're trying to hold the part in place with your other hand, that's where I really like arc force to avoid just sticking your electrode over and over.

My i-Tig 201 has an Arc Force on it, but is not purported to even run 6010. My Primeweld doesn't but it runs it. I've been meaning to try 6010 on the i-Tig 201, but I just listed it for sale, if I sell it I'll get the Esab Miniarc 180i.

EDIT: just lowered the price to $450, I've had enough of looking at an Everlast in my shop.

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/tls/d/ ... 36319.html

I agree about the Idealarc 250, but it's a known and proven machine over the years to run 6010. Look how much power it consumes? It's 70 amps of 240v without the PFC and 50 amps with PFC.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Ok, did an interesting but non-scientific test tonight.

I got some Fleetweld 5p+, just had to try it...

Here's 5p+ run on the Primeweld.



Here's a few different rods, the top 2 rows are 5p+ run on the Primeweld. From the Center down run on the green weenie. Notice the bead in the center is shiny and 2 beads under it are shiny, those 2 were run with the ebay red brick 6010 I got. Those beads could have used more heat, but those didn't splatter much at all, Arc Force set at 50% on the green weenie.

The bead under the center shiny bead and 2 beads under that (hard to see) were run with 5p+ on the green weenie with Arc Force set to full, I couldn't keep the rod lit very well at all. Lots of splatter unlike the red brick rod run at 50% Arc Force. The bottom 2 beads were run with Arc Force set to max running Fleetweld 180 6011.



My conclusion, the Primeweld is a much better stick welder than my green weenie, it runs the 5p+ way better and the beads are shinier and look better. The green weenie just doesn't run cellulose that well at all, can barely keep the 5p+ lit, and both the 6010 and 6011 beads look like crap in comparison to me. Even if I had to pay $200 extra to get the Miniarc 180i as a second machine, it would be a much better stick machine, IMO.

For comparison, this was Fleetweld 180 6011 run on the edge of the 1/2" mild plate with the Primeweld. Same rod as used on the bottom 2 beads with the green weenie, they look like crap.

[sbaker56]

Very interesting, supports my general observation that a 6010 capable machine will run 6011 better as well though

[TraditionalToolworks]

Very interesting, supports my general observation that a 6010 capable machine will run 6011 better as well though

Yes, although I'm not sure I would say the Primeweld is 6010 capable, but it is in the sense that it can run it. Everlast claims my green weenie will run 6011, but not 6010.

Buyer on the way to get my Everlast at Noon PST.

EDIT: Oh happy day...I'm green weenie-less, no more Everlast products for me in my shop. Just pulled away from my home, I'm sure the guy will enjoy it. It was a good machine for me to learn Tig on, but the Primeweld is better in all respects, including Stick.