[Coldman]

http://www.callidedawsoninsurance.com.a ... ace-injury

[Coldman]

An old fart wouldn't have worked out how to do that.
Didn't I say before I was a noob?

[angus]

I was in a relationship with a Vietnamese woman in the late seventies, from my own experience I can tell you they are very heavy smokers. (it is ironic that we lost a war with guns and bombs but are still killing them daily with Marlboros.)

the idea that mr tranh smoked only five cigarettes a day is laughable, if you had had any close exposure to Asian culture you would be aware of this and call that alleged fact into question.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-la ... 39177.html

obviously, from my bias here, I am no fan of the huffington post but I am busy and for your reading pleasure, just pulled the first info I could find.

when a lawyer, in this case Victoria keays, wins a case and states they are 'cautious', you can read that as they were stupefied that the decision maker ruled in their favor.

however, in fairness I asked you to provide me with one piece of evidence and you did. a reader that chooses to make
themselves familiar with the facts in the case can form their own opinion and decide how they would rule in this
instance. I have a friend that's an attorney and he subscribes to westlaw, if I have the opportunity I will take the time to read further; but probably not.

in Australia is it common practice to weld galvanized pool fencing with SS wire; i am only asking as I have not seen that done in the US.

[Superiorwelding]

Vic,
I will enter my opinion on fumes in general and welders health in the long run. I have the distinct privilege to compile all our SDS sheets for the company I work for. If you look at them closely most, if not all, have a hazard that can lead to cancer or injury or death or that .01% of killing your nervous system. Most products we use have a small amount of something that, usually in large quantities, can harm humans in some way. That does not stop us from using them. Look at copper for instance. You can't purchase a work lead without the SDS sheet warning you of the dangers of copper and copper dust etc. All welding wires have their SDS sheets to say the same things. Do I feel it is overkill?

What I have found ironic is we have a welder who constantly wants the fan on to extract the welding smoke. We use Lincoln L-56 and L-59 and on occasion SMAW electrodes. On a normal day we do not generate a lot of smoke, in my opinion, but there are days it can get foggy. This welder chews and but complains more about the smoke than anything. I am not judging him in any way I just feel that is a little hypocritical to complain about something you are not breathing all day and then do something to your body that is PROVEN can lead to cancers.

I do not have a problem with fume extraction, rather I encourage it but when we start looking at flux shielded electrodes and wires we need to keep it in perspective. Most of the time we do not actually breath more than the OSHA designated limits anyway. When we are exposed to more than we should be than yes, look at masks, PAPR's, source capture fume extractors or if your company allows it, another filler material that is comparable to what you are already using. There are distinct benefits of dual shield fillers, as Vic has already stated, so we can not just rule them out as cancer providers and human killers that should not be used.

And here is another thing. Look at the SDS for grinding wheels, cut off wheels and sanding disks. While they generally don't warn of anything that can cause direct death they still warn of gastrointestinal irritation and disturbances but we still breath the trace amounts in our system. Over time can this cause cancer? Should we ban these products for health sake?

I do believe that welders will be better protected from what they are welding on and the products the are using as time moves on. We are actually looking at fume extractors for the future and the vendor we were talking to told me that there is a local company that is and has been paying $65,000 a year in fines because of the employee exposure limit. With fines like that and the general attention to hex-chrome I believe we will see things generally get better. HOWEVER, I do not feel this will be across the board. There are certain industries that either will not or cannot easily adopt these guidelines. Do you think Pipeline Welders will wear PAPR helmets anytime soon? What about those times where it is near impossible to get into where you are welding? I can see PAPR helmets becoming more popular and affordable in time and I believe that will help our exposure as a industry.

Wow, that was a long rant.
-Jonathan

[Coldman]

@Angus
There are probably several brands of lung cancer each with a range causes like asbestos causes mesothelioma. Maybe this particular brand is less common from tobacco smoke I wouldn't know. If the verdict was fragile it would be tested under appeal, you would think there would be vested interest in doing so. I know that when a case goes before a court anything can happen and mostly from what I see nobody ends up completely happy with the result.

@Jonathan
But you do have the msds's, you have read them, you have bothered to inform yourself about exposure limits, taken measurements in your shop and are considering ventilation plans. Is this not good precaution and action that makes it a good place to work rather one that I would run away from? Tell me, do you use fc in your home garage shop?
Things seem to change when we go home. We wear steel capped boots at work but we push a mower at home in bare feet. You know what I mean?

I read last night that wood dust was a confirmed carcinogen, I did not know that. Truly what does not kill you makes you fat.

[taz]

Do you think Pipeline Welders will wear PAPR helmets anytime soon? What about those times where it is near impossible to get into where you are welding? I can see PAPR helmets becoming more popular and affordable in time and I believe that will help our exposure as a industry.
-Jonathan

Why not? I know these 2 brothers who use them welding pipeline (and 1 more welder and that is about it )

AbO79qXQ5WM

Seriously now, exposure limits change every day (along with acceptable cholesterol limits, blood sugar concentration etc).
It is almost impossible to say whether if that particular person got the cancer due to welding fumes or he would have gotten it anyway.
Not all people display the same sensitivity to various pollutants. I for example can't stand it when I am around welding and grinding nickel alloys, my throat gets sore and I start getting this annoying sensation in my mouth. Needless to say when I am the one doing the welding these metals I always try to wear my Speedglas Adflo.
I believe if you can do something to reduce exposure to a documented danger/annoyance you should do it.

[Superiorwelding]

@Jonathan
But you do have the msds's, you have read them, you have bothered to inform yourself about exposure limits, taken measurements in your shop and are considering ventilation plans. Is this not good precaution and action that makes it a good place to work rather one that I would run away from? Tell me, do you use fc in your home garage shop?
Things seem to change when we go home. We wear steel capped boots at work but we push a mower at home in bare feet. You know what I mean?

I read last night that wood dust was a confirmed carcinogen, I did not know that. Truly what does not kill you makes you fat.

Vic,
I believe welders should be responsible enough to educate themselves on the processes and products they are using. You cannot always count on an employer to either care or know about everything you are using and doing. Also, according to OSHA, 29 CFR 1910.1200 Hazard Communication the manufacturer, distributor, or importer MUST provide a SDS and the employer MUST have the given SDS sheets available to all employees. With this law why not educate yourself? Also, you have the right to submit a request for the SDS for ANY product you use or come in contact with. There is even a OSHA form for the requests that your employer cannot deny you. So yes, I believe if you do not know what the hazards are of the products you use, like flux core, it is on your shoulders.

Write more later, gotta go.

[Coldman]

Unless of course you subscribe to this forum in which case we can save your ass or shoulders.

[Coldman]

@Angus
I don't believe there is much galvanized pool fencing going up these days at all. Most of it is powdercoat aluminium or glass type panel from what I've seen.

[Superiorwelding]

Unless of course you subscribe to this forum in which case we can save your ass or shoulders.

Ok, now I will contunue my rant.

You mentioned my work place and how we are and have taken measures to protect our employees. Yes, we do all we can but we are not necessarily perfect. There is always room for improvement. It is a great place to work from that perspective. We all have PPE that I never would have had from previous employers. We do not care how much a given item costs if it is first necessary and second can protect us in various ways. I do understand that there are a lot of shops that do not have this mentality. I am not saying that anyone should just up and quit because they won't provide safety glasses rather why not use this forum, as you mentioned, and the OSHA and other standards to educate yourself and your employer. If presented in a professional and responsible manner you might be supprised at the results one can get. This forum is AWESOME but we do not discuss safety in general as much as we should or could.

Speaking for myself, I do more, at times anyway, to protect myself in my garage than some hobbiests might. I had the ability to have a actual shop for 1 year (still have my business in garage) and am now the Safety Director for my current employer and this helped me to be aware of safety in general. In my garage I have a fully stocked and OSHA compliant first aid kit, up to date fire extinguisher, safety glasses a plenty, tons of ear plugs, all different types of face masks for verious uses, a $2K PAPR helmet (that I don't use as much as I should), gloves for welding and material handling and even go so far as to make sure my rigging and lifting equipment are properly inspected for my safety. I am not mentioning this stuff to brag rather to give a example that if you take safety for you and your health seriously there is no limit to the money you will spend to properly protect yourself. Concerning the original topic of flux core and using it in my garage, I have read all the SDS' for the products I use and always try to weld either out side or with a fan pulling the smoke away from me. I believe again, that there is no excuse not to be informed about the wires we use even from the small 110 self shielded flux wires. We live in a time where information is readily available.

I guess what I am really trying to say is I completely disagree with your original statement in the other thread that flux core should be outlawed, or however you worded it. With the proper protection you should be fine and it is your own stupidity if you do not protect yourself.
-Jonathan

[angus]

@Angus
I don't believe there is much galvanized pool fencing going up these days at all. Most of it is powdercoat aluminium or glass type panel from what I've seen.

(edit) i mentioned that the man was building galvanized pool fencing but now i can't locate the article that i pulled that bit of info from. sorry, it's out there if you want to look for it.

(no need to look, I found it.) below
http://www.ituc-csi.org/australian-weld ... rk?lang=en

"worked six days a week welding galvanized fences for pools and railways using stainless steel wire."


also adenocarcinoma i pulled from here.

http://www.cap.org/apps/docs/reference/ ... cinoma.pdf

i asked the question because i went looking to see if i could pull the actual case file using a citation quoted in another news release and in the process read a number of articles about the decision. in the link i am providing if you scroll down you will see a description of the working conditions of the shop (not good), the product manufactured (galvanized pool rail) and that they used a stainless wire for welding; this was a material fact very important to mr. tranhs case.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/door- ... 04h2w.html

what is a mystery to me is why did mr tran(h), seventeen years after leaving his job, be allowed to file a claim. the fact that the defense, if there even was one, could not refute the arguments of the plaintiffs expert witnesses, woodruff and driscoll surprises me too. didn't the defense ask professor driscoll how he arrived at his percentages?

Epidemiologist Timothy Driscoll said an analysis of 16 case-control studies, involving almost 570 welders with lung cancer, provided "strong evidence that exposure to welding fumes increases the risk".

strong evidence does not equal proof.

Instead, it was persuaded by medical testimony that former welders are 44% more likely to contract lung cancer than people who have never carried out such work.
The court also heard welders are 23% more likely to develop adenocarcinoma.

so how do you quantify strong evidence into hard percentages? where was the defense? amazing.

this (below) makes more sense to me and i am not for one moment buying the five cig's a day story but i was not the judge.

The court heard evidence from other medical experts who disagreed, arguing that light smokers faced a 550 per cent higher risk of developing lung cancer, and that cigarette smoking was 26 times more likely to be the cause of lung cancer in welders who were also light smokers

hmmm on balance i would have to agree with the opinions of this team of experts particularly since we have some solid numbers regarding cigarettes and cancer.

all in all it looks like a bag job to me. it appears there was only a judge listening to the pleadings so i am wondering if this was an actual jury trial at all or more like an administrative hearing.

i apologize in advance for any typos, this was quick and dirty.

[Coldman]

@Angus
It was a County Court trial. The Magistrate (or Judge) would be judge and jury in this case. Jury trials happen in higher courts for big ticket items (here in Oz) like murders and serial grubs etc. Still a proper and valid court and trial and certainly may affect precedence everywhere including UK and USA.
I hear what you say about the verdict and conduct of the defense. I can't comment much because I am just a baggy assed fridgie (and proud of it) without court experience because I do what I can to stay away from them and so far been successful. I think if vested stakeholders are not happy with the verdict they can appeal it all the way up to the High Court of Australia if they wish. Let's see what happens.

@Jonathan
You are saying as industry professionals (tradies) we should be trained and safety starts with us as individuals. We should be alert and use sds and ppe that are always available to us. Agreed.

What about the untrained public that can go to your HF or Walmart or any brand of consumer store, buy inner shield wire and power source because he wants to have a go at fixing his side gate like he saw on "Gilligan's Island" u-tube. You are saying here let the buyer beware. In this case his training is "Gilligan" who says nothing about toxicity, just don't dial in too many volts in case the metal sticks together. Maybe he's a basket weaver, he does not know what an msds is and does not read the manufacturer's instructions past plug it in switch it on and don't poke it in your ear. Can't we do something better for these guys, is "he should have known better" good enough? Not saying it isn't, just putting it out there. Somehow to me it just doesn't feel right.
Maybe instead of banning it, there could be lawful assistance like mandatory verbal safety information at the point of purchase - even 30 seconds of it. Or maybe mandatory filter ppe in the box with the power source. Then maybe we can say its on your shoulders with a clear conscience.

[Superiorwelding]

@Jonathan
You are saying as industry professionals (tradies) we should be trained and safety starts with us as individuals. We should be alert and use sds and ppe that are always available to us. Agreed.

What about the untrained public that can go to your HF or Walmart or any brand of consumer store, buy inner shield wire and power source because he wants to have a go at fixing his side gate like he saw on "Gilligan's Island" u-tube. You are saying here let the buyer beware. In this case his training is "Gilligan" who says nothing about toxicity, just don't dial in too many volts in case the metal sticks together. Maybe he's a basket weaver, he does not know what an msds is and does not read the manufacturer's instructions past plug it in switch it on and don't poke it in your ear. Can't we do something better for these guys, is "he should have known better" good enough? Not saying it isn't, just putting it out there. Somehow to me it just doesn't feel right.
Maybe instead of banning it, there could be lawful assistance like mandatory verbal safety information at the point of purchase - even 30 seconds of it. Or maybe mandatory filter ppe in the box with the power source. Then maybe we can say its on your shoulders with a clear conscience.

Vic,
I thought long and hard about my response and here is what I came up with. First, I really appreciate this conversation. Safety and Health sometimes are not the easiest topics to discuss and I feel we do not talk about it enough here. I want to thank everyone who has contributed so far for keeping it respectable and open minded.

Second, yes I was meaning that safety starts with us. I believe EVERYONE needs to read or watch what Mike Rowe says about "Safety Third" which I agree with completely. Part of his message includes the fact that you CANNOT rely on a company, co-workers, or anyone else to be concerned about your health and safety. It starts with YOU!! You have to be aware of what is around you. You have to be responsible for what you are doing. You need to be aware of the risks of things you might be exposed to and breath. You need to take the first step to insure you make it home tonight, not anyone else.

Third, I have to respectfully disagree with the thought that home hobbiests are not made aware of health and even safety risks when purchasing things from retailers. I though about what you said and did a little digging to make sure I was right. I can't speak for Oz or any other country but in America when one purchases a welder, welding wire or electrodes, hard wheels of any type, sanding discs, etc each comes with a SDS sheet or warnings from the factory. So, I made a trip to Lowes. ALL wires and electrodes came with their SDS', even the solid wire. I opened up a small Lincoln welder and got the manual out. The very first three pages dealt with safety and various exposures. Now, that does not mean you and I will take the time to read them nor does it mean everything will apply to us. So I believe we can in fact say it is on your (our) shoulders.

I do not believe there will be sort of warning apart from what we already have. Think about this, if we ask the clerk at the local supply store to give a 30 second "warning" everytime a roll of E71T-11 came to the register can you imagine the training that would involve? So we wouldn't be able to stop with welding supplies. When copper tubing is sold you would have to do the same. What about fiberglass, treated lumber, paint and stains? Then you get into power tools. How do you tell the idiot that is buying a curcular saw not to cut his finger off politically correct? See the problem with this "warning" technique?

Remember it is all about exposure. Does the welder in his garage get exposed to enough toxic gases to die of cancer? Let me share a example. I have a friend who welded in and around nucular reactors. Under certain conditions he would have to suit up in full hazmat gear and was only allowed to weld or repair so long per stretch and a cartain total of exposure per day. Because of this limitation it would take longer to get these repairs done. He was exposed to radiation levels that were acceptable and to date, is fine. He has been retired for some time and is more active than many his age. I am not saying he does not or will not get sick or cancer one day rather he was exposed to acceptable levels of radiaton and has no known ill effects. Same as the exposure that some welders will have while welding.

As far as "Gilligan" on YouTube, that topic can be a can of worms in itself. All I can say is I don't make YouTube videos so I can't "judge" how they do it. I can say is you can not warn everyone about the dangers of welding in every video nor be able to cover it in a series of videos. And try to keep your audience while doing it.

Please, any members that want to add please do!
-Jonathan