Welding Tips and Tricks

I have had a Hobart 140 now for about 5 years and have been using flux wire. Just getting around to buying a gas bottle.

Went to a welding supply company here in Utah and they offer a bottle purchase at what I feel is a reasonable price for an 80 CU foot bottle. I buy the bottle which is actually just access to the gas as they just do an exchange on the bottle and I pay for the gas. They just swap bottles instead of refilling my actual bottle.

Any reason not to do this? The only issue I can see is if I was to move out of state and take the bottle with me. Is it likely I will be able to fill it if I move.

The cost of the bottle is only 250 dollars so it wouldn't b the end of the world if I move and lose the 250.

I just did an edit on this post.
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I was thinking of an 80 C/ft tank, they didn't have one on hand and were going to check with another one of their stores. So I got to think is 80 an odd size? The 125 is a taller tank but if it's a more highly used bottle, it might have an advantage when I go in for a tank swap if they are more likely to be on hand.

Now the CO2 V C25. Should I just skip C02 and go right to C25, on a 125 Cu/ft tank the cost can't be that much different. If it's more highly used, should I go with the majority setup?

My 120 cf bottle of c25 was 150$ for the same deal.

Smokey9701 wrote:Any reason not to do this? The only issue I can see is if I was to move out of state and take the bottle with me. Is it likely I will be able to fill it if I move.

Smokey,

I think you meant it's "unlikely" you would be able to fill it. Typically the gas vendors mark the bottle on the neck for the bottles they own, you need an unmarked bottle in order to be able to fill at most gas vendors, if you own the bottle. IOW, that's how they typically determine if you own the bottle or not, if it's marked with vendors name or blank.

Smokey9701 wrote:The 125 is a taller tank but if it's a more highly used bottle, it might have an advantage when I go in for a tank swap if they are more likely to be on hand.

I have a 125 cf tank I own, I take it back and swap the bottle for a filled one. I purchased it for $125 locally off craigslist and they charged me $28 for the certification. They maintain the bottles, paint them, make sure the valve is working correctly, etc...I think I pay about $70 to swap out for a full bottle of argon. I think the price of C25 is the same deal.

Different areas have different deals, I know a guy in WI who pays for a lease on his bottles, but only has to pay like $30 to get them refilled for a 330 cf tank. He pays about $500 for 5 years, but has 4 or 5 different bottles. That way is cheaper in the long run if you use a lot of gas, but I don't have such an available vendor that does that by me. I use about 3-4 tanks per year.

Alan,

Thanks for your reply. I want to make sure I understand this. You purchased a tank on Craigs list but then take it to a local vendor for a refill you and they take you purchased tank and swap it for one of there. From then you are kind of in the club? Now you own a tank but it's not the one you started with. If I have this correct, can you take whatever tank you have to a different gas suppliers for a swap?

This seems strange, it should more like leasing than owning.

So If I buy a brand new tank which is good for lets say 10 years, I take it in for a refill, they swap it and I get a tank that will expire next year. I move out out of state and can't get it filled?

Is it an option to buy my own tank new, and keep it for 10 years, get it certified and then run it for another 10 years.

Or,,,,,,,,, I just buy the right to a tank swap program for a one time set fee, then start all over with the same process if I move some place else. So in with the vendor I have talked to, I would be out the 225 which is not all that much if it works for 2 or 3 years.

Smokey9701 wrote:Thanks for your reply. I want to make sure I understand this. You purchased a tank on Craigs list but then take it to a local vendor for a refill you and they take you purchased tank and swap it for one of there. From then you are kind of in the club? Now you own a tank but it's not the one you started with. If I have this correct, can you take whatever tank you have to a different gas suppliers for a swap?

Yes, exactly. I bought an old beat up tank, but the $28 they charged me is to certify and paint and basically maintain that tank, when it goes out to another customer it will have a new valve on it, new paint and be like any of their other tanks, but it will not have their name stamped on the neck. *IF* you do this you need to make sure the tank is up to their spec, they can refuse to accept the tank otherwise.

Smokey9701 wrote:This seems strange, it should more like leasing than owning.

Actually this is not uncommon for gas vendors to use this model, the tank they exchange me is always a tank that doesn't have their name stamped on it, so I'm always the owner. Also, any other vendor will take their tank in the area, they are well respected. My tank has their name painted on the side (Madco). Praxair bought Madco a couple years ago.

Smokey9701 wrote:So If I buy a brand new tank which is good for lets say 10 years, I take it in for a refill, they swap it and I get a tank that will expire next year. I move out out of state and can't get it filled?

No, it's always 10 years from the date you exchange, so every time you exchange a tank the 10 year clock starts over. That just means if you wait longer than 10 years you need to pay another $28 certification.

I own the physical tank, I can take it anywhere and exchange it or get it refilled myself, that goes for if I move as well. The tank belongs to me. And I only have $150~ with the certification into the tank. It would cost me the same to exchange a tank I bought from them, which would be slightly higher, possibly $250 for a filled tank.

FWIW, this also goes for my oxy-acetylene tanks, I paid to have them certified and I can take them in and exchange them with Madco also. They have set prices for the size of the tank and the gas and/or oxygen being used. My oxy-acetylene tanks were certified by the previous owner's Father when he was alive. I also bought those off craigslist.

Are you sure it's not access to a bottle rather than gas? Most places do swap bottles rather than fill them, but they consider it as you owning a not necessarily the bottle you bought, but you can take that bottle and swap it somewhere else, get it filled, shoot holes in it etc, if you can't take it with you or swap it somewhere else, I definitely wouldn't pay $250 for a 125cf bottle, if you can though I'd definitely get the 125 over the 80, they're both manageable size wise and the 125 goes a lot further.

sbaker56 wrote:Are you sure it's not access to a bottle rather than gas? Most places do swap bottles rather than fill them, but they consider it as you owning a not necessarily the bottle you bought, but you can take that bottle and swap it somewhere else, get it filled, shoot holes in it etc, if you can't take it with you or swap it somewhere else, I definitely wouldn't pay $250 for a 125cf bottle, if you can though I'd definitely get the 125 over the 80, they're both manageable size wise and the 125 goes a lot further.

Doesn't matter how you see the "access", as it's still an up-front cost. $250 is not unheard of for the cost of a raw tank. Seems $200-225 is more common.

Definitely go for the 125 ft³, and ask any and all questions to YOUR supplier, for it does not matter what ours do for us, if yours won't do the same for you.

sbaker56 wrote:Are you sure it's not access to a bottle rather than gas? Most places do swap bottles rather than fill them, but they consider it as you owning a not necessarily the bottle you bought, but you can take that bottle and swap it somewhere else, get it filled, shoot holes in it etc, if you can't take it with you or swap it somewhere else, I definitely wouldn't pay $250 for a 125cf bottle, if you can though I'd definitely get the 125 over the 80, they're both manageable size wise and the 125 goes a lot further.

Yeah, I agree, 125 goes a lot farther than 80, and for me 125 is the sweet spot for cost vs. investment. I can't remember exact prices as they often change, but I think it's like close to $350 to get a filled 330 cf bottle. Oh, I can also upgrade anytime I want also, that may be the case for you also Smokey.

The other thing to remember is that these places also do a lease deal, where you pay a yearly fee and get a different price on the gas, so if you use a lot it may be cheaper to do the lease, but in that case the tanks are stamped on the neck with their company name and you never actually own the tank. You can't take the tank anywhere else and get it filled either, only the place you lease it from. For me the cost per cu.ft. is not that much less for a 250 cf or 330 cf tank than it is for 125 cf, although it does cost me more per cu.ft., just not that much more for how much gas you need to buy at once. I think that's a blessing and a curse, it's a blessing to have more gas if you use it, but it's a curse to be forced to pay for 330 cf if you only use 110 cf per year.

Oscar wrote:Doesn't matter how you see the "access", as it's still an up-front cost. $250 is not unheard of for the cost of a raw tank. Seems $200-225 is more common.

Keep in mind I live in one of the most affluent areas in the U.S. Rent for a 1500 sq.ft. home is $5k/mo here... In that regard $250 is not a bad deal for a filled tank. (I don't know the exact costs off the top of my head either...just going by memory)

TraditionalToolworks wrote: No, it's always 10 years from the date you exchange, so every time you exchange a tank the 10 year clock starts over. That just means if you wait longer than 10 years you need to pay another $28 certification.

Tank tests aren't always good for 10 years. 5 years is the standard. If a tank has just a date stamp the test is good for five years. If the tank has a star following the date, it's good for 10 years. If there is a "+" the tank is certified for being filled 10% higher pressure.

It isn't uncommon to see a tank that has an older date without the star or + and a newer test with them, so it's not necessarily related to the tank condition, but can be a limitation of the testing facility.

Smokey9701 wrote:Alan,

Thanks for your reply. I want to make sure I understand this. You purchased a tank on Craigs list but then take it to a local vendor for a refill you and they take you purchased tank and swap it for one of there. From then you are kind of in the club? Now you own a tank but it's not the one you started with. If I have this correct, can you take whatever tank you have to a different gas suppliers for a swap?

This seems strange, it should more like leasing than owning.

So If I buy a brand new tank which is good for lets say 10 years, I take it in for a refill, they swap it and I get a tank that will expire next year. I move out out of state and can't get it filled?

Is it an option to buy my own tank new, and keep it for 10 years, get it certified and then run it for another 10 years.

Or,,,,,,,,, I just buy the right to a tank swap program for a one time set fee, then start all over with the same process if I move some place else. So in with the vendor I have talked to, I would be out the 225 which is not all that much if it works for 2 or 3 years.

Every area and every shop handles these things differently, so you really have to talk to the local shops near you to know for sure. So many bottles are out there with the names of long gone companies that it's really confusing and the welding shops don't make it any easier.

In most cases, if you walk in to a shop and buy a bottle it's not a new bottle at all, but is full and has a current inspection date. If it's got a new 10 year inspection stamp (a star after the date) and you happened to take 10 years to use it, the shop likely won't charge you for a test when you go to swap it. More often than not the bottle you pick up won't have a brand new date on it, so that's part of why they don't charge you for it at swap time when it's a bottle you bought from them.

Moving and taking that bottle to another place is a mixed bag that depends upon a number of factors. The size of the bottle, and any neck ring markings come into play. If the bottle has the name of an existing, known company on it, some places will swap them, some will only send them out for test/fill and return them to you, and some won't even touch them. Some places won't sell an individual the larger bottle sizes so even if you show up with a 300 (really 330) that has no name they might not be willing to swap it. In many ways this is just like buying a used bottle of Craigslist and trying to get it filled/swapped....it really just depends.

I bought a welder that came with a 300 bottle a while back that had an Airgas sticker on it, but it had an AGA neck ring. The closest Airgas to me said there was no way for them to swap a 300 on anything but a commercial account. An Airgas that was 30 minutes away said they could swap it with a manager's override, or something similar. The local welding shop said "it's an AGA bottle and they're out of business, so I'll swap it" and that was that. I paid $25 for a test and new valve, another $75 in fill and tax and was out the door for $100...it pays to ask around.

In my area, the only bottle a gas company won’t refill is a full size because they are stamped with DOT inspections. And they only refill their own, stamped bottles.

The deal with my customer owned gas bottles is that as long as you have an account with the gas company, they will swap unmarked bottles <300CFt, for the price of the gas only. I have 3 customer owned, and 3 full-sized leased bottles. Check with your gas company because the $250 purchase could be the bottle and gas for the first go around. Refill is priced separately.

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Thanks everyone. I think I have the picture clear now. There is some overhead cost in all this but, that to be expected. I can live with it.

Thanks again.

cj737 wrote:Check with your gas company because the $250 purchase could be the bottle and gas for the first go around. Refill is priced separately.

Yes, in my case it is. That $250 price was for a filled tank, I think it cost about $70 to exchange for a full one.

There's a guy on craigslist selling full 125 cf argon tanks for $260, so not like Praxair is out of line, IMO.

Smokey9701 wrote:There is some overhead cost in all this but, that to be expected. I can live with it.

Yeah, the trick is figuring out if you make out better leasing or owning the tanks yourself. I just don't like the idea of having someone else's tank, although it's not too much different. In the case of a lease you get a bill at the end of the year for the yearly lease though.

At work, I have 3 330 tanks, 2 are argon and 1 c25. I pay around $80/year for tank rental (for all 3) and each fill is around $100 delivered. I'm going from memory, but that's pretty close.

I looked into buying but it's just not worth it.

The places here still ask you to leave a $250 deposit for the tank, even if it's a rental. So at that point, if I simply keep using "the tank" from now on (meaning exchanging it for refills), I never get that $250 back since I'm still using it, at least until I'm on my death bed, at which point the extra $250 in my pocket won't do me any good, lol.