[sbaker56]

I thought people might be interested in the results attempting spray transfer and using gas shielded fluxcore in a 210 amp class machine, so I decided I'd post about it.

I'm always looking to become familiar with new processes and expand the capabilities of my welder and I although I've read more than enough to make me realize it wasn't optimal for spray transfer I've always wanted to give it a try, watching Jody's video's I also realized perhaps FCAW-G might be a pretty decent substitute as well.
I made a bit of a trip to the largest welding store around me and to my surprise they had .035 Outershield 71M on hand, I immediately bought a roll, as soon as I got home I threw it into my welder, using 75/25 I spent several hours welding coupons and cutting and etching some. Although they still seemed plenty strong bending them in a vice, I noticed every single sample I cut open had a small slag inclusion at the very root of the weld, I tried numerous settings and gun angles, but while It didn't seem to get much worse no matter what I did, It didn't go away either. That being said the deposition rate was incredible, especially when upwards of 500 IPM It felt like I was just flying along. I was able to go up to nearly 600 IPM before I started having issues wetting in the toes of the weld. I suspect It could handle .045 dual shield just fine, and it might get better fusion that way as well, though I don't have the drive roll and liner to try it.

I'd burned up close to 500 PSI of gas just experimenting that day however, and I realized I'd go through the rest of my 125CF tank a whole lot faster than I thought running the flow rate FCAW-G requires especially outside and I'd probably go through that spool of wire faster than I'd expect too.
So I found myself heading back to the store to ask about renting a bottle of spray gas, I just had to settle my curiousity So I get there and a 380CF cylinder of 95/5 was only 60 dollars out the door and about 9 dollars at the end of each month. Unfortunately after paying they realized they didn't currently actually have any 95/5 on hand. They offered me a 92/8 Ar/Co2 tank instead of I wanted it, and he mentioned he would credit my account for the inconvenience, so I decided to take it as I figured it would also work for short circuit work on thinner stuff and possible better than 75/25 for sheet metal.

I still had the .035 Outershield in the welder and I figured there was no harm in running a few beads with the new gas before I swapped over to .030 hardwire. I figured my machine would spray .035 FCAW-G at lower wire speed It would sure as hell spray on 92/8 although I expected a poor weld as a result of using the wrong gas. I was able to scrounge up some 3/8 plate, cranked the voltage to max, set the wire speed to about 475IPM, set about 1/2 stickout and ran a bead, to my surprise it actually came out looking nice and hot even showing some surface worm tracks from the voltage being too high, which made sense as other MFG's wire that may be rated to run on both 75/25 and 90/10 suggest decreasing the voltage as much as 2-3 volts when running 90/10.

I welded up a couple more dirty pieces of 3/8 I had laying around and decided to clamp them in the vice, put my 2 foot pipe wrench on them and see how easily they broke. I'm a relatively strong guy, I weigh about 215 and while I'm not quite as strong now, I used be able to get a few chinups with 135 chained on, but It took most my strength to break the first weld far more than it would've taken to simply bend a 1/4 plate over, in fact I thought i'd broke the vice, and it still took a good bit of force to finish breaking the weld. On the second plate I had to brace against the table to avoid tipping it over, and didn't dare trying any harder for fear of breaking my vise. Since it was after midnight I figured i'd swap in the .030, try it so I didn't lay awake at night wondering and then go to bed. I scrounged through all my scrap some more, and found some 1/4 plate that hadn't been welded on enough I could use it. it wasn't very clean but I didn't care.

With .030 E70s-6, at around 385 IPM and under I got a very quiet l spray arc type sound, but I was getting very large globs coming off the wire, I had a pretty large arc gap and I suspect my wire speed was simply too low. When I went above 400 IPM and on, I got what appears to be pinching of the wire and a short arc between the puddle and wire, I've not ran spray transfer before, but It looked pretty similar to what I've seen in videos and heard described, it looked like I could see some tiny droplets in the arc. It was VERY hot I could feel the heat and my gloves felt like I was running FCAW, the bead was very flat and fluid, but I was getting spatter, loud popping and crackling, and a very violent sounding arc. Now this was dirty metal, and it did seem to quite down some on slightly cleaner pieces, and I could hear a hiss in bectwen all the popping and crackling. I'm not sure if I was rapidly transitioning back and forth between spray and short circuit, If I was in a very hot short circuit mode, or if I was actually spraying, although the bead resembled a flat spray arc weld. I tried to break a 1/4 T joint I welded on one side, and I simple bent the plate itself to the point I couldn't go any further without hitting the vice. I did break a 3/8 T joint without too much trouble but it was absolutely filthy, scaly rusted steel. Then I grabbed some 16 gauge sheet metal, which I know to some of you is practically plate and you can weld it no trouble even with SMAW, but I find with my tapped machine, if I set it low enough not to blow through with .030 wire I glob up metal. However with this gas I was able to get a very smooth arc and beautiful bead, just shy of full penetration without too much trouble.

I'm going to get some steel as clean as I possible can tomorrow and experiment some more as well as doing some cut and etching, whatever transfer method I'm actually in, it is plenty hot, looks like its digging deep and is quite usable. but only cutting and etching will show just what kind of penetration I'm getting. I will update this post, hopefully with some pictures when I do. I welcome any suggestions, but I also wanted to share my experiences for anyone with a similar machine.

[JayWal]

Dual Shield FC is actually quite prone to slag inclusions in the root, when running a flat fillet. It is designed for out of position welds, spray transfer hardwire of metalcore are recommended when you're running just flat pieces on a table. It can be done with the right settings and technique tho. Clean material helps, grinding off millscale helps. For out of pos welds Dual Shield cuts through scale and light rust a lot better, again, that is where it shines. Using 100% CO2 also helps eliminate that slag in the root as well.

Interesting that it actually worked with the wrong gas. I use Outershield 71Supreme a lot and it specifically states only 75/25 or straight CO2 for gas. As does the spec sheet for your wire. Higher mixtures of argon can mess with the chemistry of the weld.

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[Simclardy]

Surprised you could use over 80%argon

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[Oscar]

I didn't like the results when I tried Argon higher than 75% concentration. Some were ok, just too much chance of worm tracks.

[sbaker56]

I didn't like the results when I tried Argon higher than 75% concentration. Some were ok, just too much chance of worm tracks.

Worm tracks were a problem, I do plan to eventually try with lower voltage, I wouldn't attempt to use it on anything important, although it seemed very strong, I just wanted to see if it would actually run or just glob up cold metal.


I'm actually thinking about getting a tank of pure Co2 for dual shield use, I could use the extra heat and from what I understand it makes it a lot less fussy.

[Simclardy]

I would not say "alot less fussy".
Remember to get the adapter for the tank to regulator. I got home and realized the tank is different.
It has more spatter but is supposed to get better penetration and less gas inclusion.
I did not see a huge improvement on worm tracking. Cleaning the metal made the biggest difference for me

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[snoeproe]

One suggestion for the worm tracks. Use more wire stick out. 1/2-3/4”

[sbaker56]

Well, just finished up playing around today, I'm pretty exhausted in all honesty. I think I got a little burned through my shirt

First a couple disclaimers, I am a terrible mig welder, I've not had a single mig class nor any training/job experience using one. Try not to get nausious when you see my welds .
Second, my mains voltage is usually 10-15 volts higher than it was today, that may have influenced the results a small bit.

I turned the voltage all the way up for all tests, and I was using .030 wire on 3/8 plate, I did my first fillet joint with around 385-400 IPM, and it was acting as if my wire speed was simply too low, it was a very quiet, spatter free hiss, but I was getting big globs dripping off my wire into the puddle and I was burning back relatively close to the nozzle, however the result looked a spray bead that was a little on the cold side.



I did another plate at around 460 IPM that moved me away from the globs into a very hot short spray looking arc, although It was very very spattery and loud, short circuit transfer in my experience isn't even remotely as hot or bright as this was. I'd set my shade to 12, and when I'd backed down to short circuit settings later I could barely see the arc for comparison.

I'd actually stabilized for a couple seconds towards the end once I increased my travel speed significantly, although it didn't quite wet in enough towards the end due to it.







While I didn't take pictures, once I got to around 545 IPM I noticed I was getting a tiny ridge down the center and decided that was simply as high as there was any point going with wire speed. I'd also forgot to take a picture, but it still looked relatively flat and spray like. I played around fine tuning the settings, but never quite got a stable crackle and pop free arc, so I decided my machine just barely didn't have the voltage to fully stabilize spray arc with .030 on 92/8 gas.

So I grabbed the little .025 roll of L-56 I had laying around. I had no idea if spraying with .025 would be of any use at all, but I figured If I could get a very stable spray, I could etch and compare both the .030 samples and the .025 to verify I was getting any spray with .030. Now I was definitely into a very stable spray, at 500 IPM I had like a 1/4-3/8 arc at the end of my wire It didn't burn back into the contact tip, but the second I let off the trigger it would burn right up to the tip of it. Once I f igured out stickout a little bit better, I was able to get a stable arc with zero popping or cracking noises up to around 615 IPM. Past that it would start behaving similar to the .030 with spatter and noise.



As you can see I was definitely into a very stable spray arc with .025. Cutting and etching several pieces will follow soon.

As I just got my tax refund and because it's only 9 dollars a month to rent, I might follow Oscar's lead and pick up an Oxygen Cylinder and introduce a small percentage of oxygen into the blend with a Y adapter. I need a torch anway

[Oscar]

Pic's don't show up from your Google Photos/Albums because it doesn't allow hotlinking from there. If you wanna send me the direct links, I can host them for you.

As for the oxygen, how much % do you plan to introduce and how will your accurately meter the %?

[snoeproe]

Only spray true spray transfer I’ve ran was with 045 metal core wire and 90/10 gas. But, we used big blue 400/XMT 350 machines with 12vs wire feeders.
I’ve ran lots of 045 dual shield wire also but always used either 75/25 or 100% c02
To achieve true spray transfer mode, you need minimum 80% argon gas and a welding machine with enough volts (and duty cycle) to get you there. My personal opinion has always been a 250 class machine minimum to successfully spray transfer.

[Oscar]

Only spray true spray transfer I’ve ran was with 045 metal core wire and 90/10 gas. But, we used big blue 400/XMT 350 machines with 12vs wire feeders.
I’ve ran lots of 045 dual shield wire also but always used either 75/25 or 100% c02
To achieve true spray transfer mode, you need minimum 80% argon gas and a welding machine with enough volts (and duty cycle) to get you there. My personal opinion has always been a 250 class machine minimum to successfully spray transfer.

I would say it all depends on the wire type/wire diameter/shielding gas mix. Some shielding gas mixes facilitate the transition into spray transfer better than others, as in, they reduce the required amperage threshold before the wire droplets start to separate with a diameter just slightly less than the wire. Voltage is one part, but the amperage threshold must be crossed as well (for a given wire diameter). Also, for a given wire diameter, metal-core wire (E70C-6M) goes into spray transfer much easier (sooner) than solid wire ER70S-X from what I've tested, but again that depends on the shielding gas mixture as well. That being said, some 200A class machines are more than capable of spraying 030 and 035 diameter wire. I have a couple of them. Even then, pulsed-spray is even better, IMO. Benefits of axial spray, with added control of short-circuit (perhaps not anywhere near as much, but some resemblance).

[snoeproe]

Sure. You may be able to get into or close to spray with a 200 amp class machine and small wire. But what good is it? A maxed out machine with low duty cycle...I guess it’s ok for testing purpose goes but you ain’t doing any commercial or industrial work with it that’s for sure and that what spray type work is for.
You may as well go back to short circuiting class type work with 200 amp class machines. That’s what they’re designed for.

[Oscar]

Sure. You may be able to get into or close to spray with a 200 amp class machine and small wire. But what good is it? A maxed out machine with low duty cycle...I guess it’s ok for testing purpose goes but you ain’t doing any commercial or industrial work with it that’s for sure and that what spray type work is for.
You may as well go back to short circuiting class type work with 200 amp class machines. That’s what they’re designed for.

Well no, 200A class machines are light-fab/repair type of machines. But that doesn't negate it's capabilities. Why go back to short-circuit only type work, when the picture I showed clearly shows the advantages of pulsed-spray? Just 'cause you don't find any use for it? And that wasn't with the machine max'ed out either. That was with ~175A on a machine that is rated 25% Duty cycle @ 104°F/ 35% duty cycle @ 77°F. 25A under it's maximum rated amperage would then put the machine closer to 40% duty cycle at a typical shop temperature, while still being able to weld up 1/4" steel with great penetration. Granted 40% is not 100% duty cycle, but for most light-fab/repair type work, that will hold up to quite a bit of usage. Your you's in your reply should more correctly state "I".

[Oscar]

Well, just finished up playing around today, I'm pretty exhausted in all honesty. I think I got a little burned through my shirt

First a couple disclaimers, I am a terrible mig welder, I've not had a single mig class nor any training/job experience using one. Try not to get nausious when you see my welds .
Second, my mains voltage is usually 10-15 volts higher than it was today, that may have influenced the results a small bit.

I turned the voltage all the way up for all tests, and I was using .030 wire on 3/8 plate, I did my first fillet joint with around 385-400 IPM, and it was acting as if my wire speed was simply too low, it was a very quiet, spatter free hiss, but I was getting big globs dripping off my wire into the puddle and I was burning back relatively close to the nozzle, however the result looked a spray bead that was a little on the cold side.




I did another plate at around 460 IPM that moved me away from the globs into a very hot short spray looking arc, although It was very very spattery and loud, short circuit transfer in my experience isn't even remotely as hot or bright as this was. I'd set my shade to 12, and when I'd backed down to short circuit settings later I could barely see the arc for comparison.

I'd actually stabilized for a couple seconds towards the end once I increased my travel speed significantly, although it didn't quite wet in enough towards the end due to it.









While I didn't take pictures, once I got to around 545 IPM I noticed I was getting a tiny ridge down the center and decided that was simply as high as there was any point going with wire speed. I'd also forgot to take a picture, but it still looked relatively flat and spray like. I played around fine tuning the settings, but never quite got a stable crackle and pop free arc, so I decided my machine just barely didn't have the voltage to fully stabilize spray arc with .030 on 92/8 gas.

So I grabbed the little .025 roll of L-56 I had laying around. I had no idea if spraying with .025 would be of any use at all, but I figured If I could get a very stable spray, I could etch and compare both the .030 samples and the .025 to verify I was getting any spray with .030. Now I was definitely into a very stable spray, at 500 IPM I had like a 1/4-3/8 arc at the end of my wire It didn't burn back into the contact tip, but the second I let off the trigger it would burn right up to the tip of it. Once I f igured out stickout a little bit better, I was able to get a stable arc with zero popping or cracking noises up to around 615 IPM. Past that it would start behaving similar to the .030 with spatter and noise.




As you can see I was definitely into a very stable spray arc with .025. Cutting and etching several pieces will follow soon.

As I just got my tax refund and because it's only 9 dollars a month to rent, I might follow Oscar's lead and pick up an Oxygen Cylinder and introduce a small percentage of oxygen into the blend with a Y adapter. I need a torch anway

Fixed with pics.

[sbaker56]

I don't do production work, not yet anyways, I agree that it would be ill suited for heavy spray because of the duty cycle, and I do intend to eventually upgrade to a larger machine. But I still wanted to get the most out of 210 amps I could and take advantage of the potentially greater penetration of spray and dual shield over short circuit on 1/4 plate. I've never even hit thermal cut off even maxed out with what I do, so If I could attain spray at around 150-170 amps with the gas it would be plenty usable for me.

But I'm still not advocating for trying to spray with a machine my size, just sharing my experience. There isn't as much good info available on the performance of machines under 250 amps as there is for machines over it. I'd assumed .035 dual shield would've been the way to go on 3/16 to 3/8 plate with my machine, but I found the penetration while adequate to be less than I expected, and .045 may have been the way to go. I welcome all advice, but I'm also just sharing what I've seen so people can make their own conclusions.

[Oscar]

I'd assumed .035 dual shield would've been the way to go on 3/16 to 3/8 plate with my machine, but I found the penetration while adequate to be less than I expected, and .045 may have been the way to go. I welcome all advice, but I'm also just sharing what I've seen so people can make their own conclusions.

045 fcaw-g needs about 240-270A to go into spray-type transfer, so it's definitely not suited for a 200A class machine. 035 on the other hand would go into spray-type transfer at about 180A or so, IIRC. If you didn't get enough penetration, I would venture to guess you didn't have the wirefeed speed up high enough. Can you get to ~650 IPM? 045 would indeed do a better job, on a 300A class MIG that can run 250A+ without a hiccup.

[JayWal]

There's definitely a use for spray/metal core/ dual shield with a smaller machine, if that all you have. I just did a dozen of these parts, all 3/4 plate, with dual shield.



Just because it's a heavy part doesnt mean it'll be a big part with long welds. Parts like these dont need much of a duty cycle, you can weld one part out, let your welder cool down while you grind/set up the next one.

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[Oscar]

There's definitely a use for spray/metal core/ dual shield with a smaller machine, if that all you have. I just did a dozen of these parts, all 3/4 plate, with dual shield.


Just because it's a heavy part doesnt mean it'll be a big part with long welds. Parts like these dont need much of a duty cycle, you can weld one part out, let your welder cool down while you grind/set up the next one.

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They look even better painted black!

[cab]

There's definitely a use for spray/metal core/ dual shield with a smaller machine, if that all you have. I just did a dozen of these parts, all 3/4 plate, with dual shield.



Just because it's a heavy part doesnt mean it'll be a big part with long welds. Parts like these dont need much of a duty cycle, you can weld one part out, let your welder cool down while you grind/set up the next one.

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Nice looking welds Jay,What machine are you running?

[JayWal]

There's definitely a use for spray/metal core/ dual shield with a smaller machine, if that all you have. I just did a dozen of these parts, all 3/4 plate, with dual shield.


Just because it's a heavy part doesnt mean it'll be a big part with long welds. Parts like these dont need much of a duty cycle, you can weld one part out, let your welder cool down while you grind/set up the next one.

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They look even better painted black!

Ha, my welds always look better under a half inch of paint!

As a fellow Cannuck famously said...Grinder and paint, makes me the welder I ain't



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[Simclardy]

There's definitely a use for spray/metal core/ dual shield with a smaller machine, if that all you have. I just did a dozen of these parts, all 3/4 plate, with dual shield.


Just because it's a heavy part doesnt mean it'll be a big part with long welds. Parts like these dont need much of a duty cycle, you can weld one part out, let your welder cool down while you grind/set up the next one.

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They look even better painted black!

Ha, my welds always look better under a half inch of paint!

As a fellow Cannuck famously said...Grinder and paint, makes me the welder I ain't



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I'll say it. Those welds look good!

I did notice you put the best one in the front. Lol
I do the same. Lol


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[sbaker56]

I finished cutting and etching some samples from last night, It does look like I was possibly in an unstable spray with .030 wire, I definitely got increased penetration with .025 from spraying and it would enable me to weld a bit heavier steel than I could short circuit with .025 but I think unstable or not, I still get better penetration with .030

Top right is .030 at 425 IPM, Top left is .030 at 540 IPM.
Bottom right is .025 700 IPM which was unstable. Bottom left was .025 at 580 IPM which was completely stable and seems to be my machines sweet spot with spraying .025 wire. Top plate seems to be slightly over 3/8 but I'm probably measuring wrong. Bottom plate is 1/4.

etch 1.jpg (32.83 KiB) Viewed 6774 times

Also, Oscar I did try your suggestion and switched back to .035 outershield with 75/25 and tried running it at 650 IPM examining it I did actually get significant penetration into the walls, it's just the slag inclusion stopping it from penetrating into the root.

[Oscar]

I think it's just the machine needs more "oomph". Looking at the V-A curve, on the highest tap, with WFS up near max, voltage is capped out in the lower-20's.




What you need, Sir, is a Pro Pulse. 200A @ up to 35V. No problem spraying small diameter wires.

[sbaker56]

I think it's just the machine needs more "oomph". Looking at the V-A curve, on the highest tap, with WFS up near max, voltage is capped out in the lower-20's.




What you need, Sir, is a Pro Pulse. 200A @ up to 35V. No problem spraying small diameter wires.

I've found that chart to be a bit conservative, I'm not sure why, perhaps it was written with 230V input. I've done a fair bit of testing with a fluke multimeter hooked up to the terminals while welding and recording the voltage and it's always higher than the chart would suggest. When I first tried spraying with .030 at about 460 IPM I'd hooked the meter up and was recording around 23.5-24 volts which should've been high enough, but just barely.

I do think you're right, I suspect as I up the wire speed high enough to get the feed rate and amperage to spray my voltage is dropping hard causing the arc to be unstable. I did get a stable spray with no popping or spatter for a few inches today though with .030 and around 450 IPM, it did start popping again towards the end, but they were a little less frequent and I could hear a consistent spray hiss. Not sure why it went a little better today, I was back above 240 at the plug today, though only at 242, I'd had the gas a bit lower today, but I can't why that would enable a more stable spray. I cut and etched it but I'd inadvertently left a gap when tacking so it's hard to say how much of the penetration is due to that.

eTCH 3.jpg (23.42 KiB) Viewed 6592 times

I wish I had the budget for a machine like that, I was really surprised just how much penetration you had with pulse spray, especially being a 200 amp machine, was that 3/16 or 1/4 ? larger transformer machines and especially inverters seem to have less of a voltage drop at high amperage. Your machine just gives you a lot more control of how the arc behaves regardless of things like wire size and voltage drop.

[Oscar]

I've found that chart to be a bit conservative, I'm not sure why, perhaps it was written with 230V input. I've done a fair bit of testing with a fluke multimeter hooked up to the terminals while welding and recording the voltage and it's always higher than the chart would suggest. When I first tried spraying with .030 at about 460 IPM I'd hooked the meter up and was recording around 23.5-24 volts which should've been high enough, but just barely.

I do think you're right, I suspect as I up the wire speed high enough to get the feed rate and amperage to spray my voltage is dropping hard causing the arc to be unstable. I did get a stable spray with no popping or spatter for a few inches today though with .030 and around 450 IPM, it did start popping again towards the end, but they were a little less frequent and I could hear a consistent spray hiss. Not sure why it went a little better today, I was back above 240 at the plug today, though only at 242, I'd had the gas a bit lower today, but I can't why that would enable a more stable spray. I cut and etched it but I'd inadvertently left a gap when tacking so it's hard to say how much of the penetration is due to that.

20200329_212602.jpg

I wish I had the budget for a machine like that, I was really surprised just how much penetration you had with pulse spray, especially being a 200 amp machine, was that 3/16 or 1/4 ? larger transformer machines and especially inverters seem to have less of a voltage drop at high amperage. Your machine just gives you a lot more control of how the arc behaves regardless of things like wire size and voltage drop.

My test pieces were 1/4". Machine wasn't even maxxed out either. On the 030 pulse program it tops out at about 175-180A IIRC, a good bit lower than it's 200A max (which is attainable on other programs or on manual mode up to 220A for a short time). The key for it working so well, is in the name, the "pulse". The peak pulse is equivalent to 300A, but you don't see this on the display nor on an ammeter because it's stupid fast, something like 1/200th of a second.