[VincenzioVonHook]

I'm not sure with you guys, and where you work, but this push vs pull angle debate is getting out of hand where I am. In my eyes, you tailor the gun angle to the bead profile you want. As far as my etch testing results go, pushing in general creates a wider bead with less penetration, and pulling creates a narrow bead with deeper penetration. There are cases where i would rather a wider, shallow bead, and there is times where I would like a narrow, yet deeper weld. I find a slight weave with a pull leaves the deepest profile, and still leaves enough side tie in and reinforcement.

What i would like opinions on, is why people tailor towards push majority of the time, and why most people act like dragging is pure cancer and will spread venerial disease on the side. when in reality many people have proved otherwise.

I am growing tired a 16 year old's on work experience, or people that have strayed within 5m of an arc, carrying on about angle like it alone will produce the bees dick best weld in the world.

In my experience set up of the machine, fit up, travel speed and technique will play a bigger role in the finished weld quality compared to just pushing or pulling.

For example we had a few people in for a week to do some excess cutting and forming (5 guys from labour hire) and they would constantly hover over my shoulder carrying on about my gun angle and gas choice. The thing is though, I am using a little 150A Mig (in reality 135A, its a CIG Weldskill 150) to weld up some 100x100x5mm framing with a lot of 1/4" plate used for gussets in the corner to keep square. The little MIG does not like 6mm (especially when the work is large enough to disperse heat), and to give it a fighting chance I am running Straight Co2 as it runs a little hotter, and slight drag angle with a weave (widens out the narrow bead caused by pulling, yet penetrates deeper than a push). Trying to explain this to all the armchair "thats going to burst into seismic rage because you didn't push that" welders is like trying to tell my dog that it cant f+++ the cat. In other words, not possible.

There is no dead set right or wrong travel angle when it comes to push or pull . Different scenario's like the one above call for different techniques. I know some people are dead set against pulling a mig, but throughout my hundreds of bend and smash tested welds over the last year or so out of pure boredom, its not pushing or pulling that caused failure, and one or the other is not favored in any of the results i have seen. I'm definitely not saying i drag the mig 24/7, but when the job calls for it i will, and i have never burst into spontaniously combustion.....at least think not. Half of the guys at work push their welds, and they are rubbish. The other half that can weld well, can weld, so drag or push makes no difference.

I pushed a stick weld last night with no slag inclusion. Im sure that going to start a war.

[VincenzioVonHook]

http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4863

If you look down a few post (im sure you guys have seen bead profile diagrams before) there is a diagram that shows penetration profiles for gun angles.

Same with Co2 instead of 80/20. There is a method to my madness when i use Co2 and pull angle on my piddly little CIG.....can do things it shouldn't. (Don't worry, we have a transmig 250 but its in for repair, i just bought my CIG 150 in for the mean time, otherwise its the stick...).

I also find pulling to be a lot better for visability if you want pretty welds....i can pull some mean patterns when i pull, yet can't seem to get as good of an eye for the bead when in a bad position and pushing.

This rant has hit epic level 6 status as of 3 minutes ago.

[ex framie]

Sounds reasonable.
Have a bex and a good lie down.
If it works for you all good, no arguement here.

[Poland308]

I never paid attention if I was pulling or pushing at the time but I have had lots of shirts catch fire.

[ldbtx]

Here's a video Jody did a while back on just this very topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56DW398 ... 4C&index=5

[castweldsolutions]

Sometimes a push angle is required and sometimes a pull is required. For instance, if you're mig welding aluminum you're going to push, and if you're self shielding flux core you're going to pull. If its mild steel mig welding, then you CAN do both.

As an instructor, I teach my students how to do both. Pushing allows me to see where I'm going and pulling allows me to see where I've been. When I come to a situation where I don't have much a reference line to follow, such as the toe of another weld or a corner or edge, then I'll push it. Any other time I prefer to pull it.

We cut and etch welds here and the results are always the same. Pulling always produces better penetration, but if you do it right, you can also get good results pushing. So I teach my students (only with mild steel mig) that in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter so long as you use good technique in either direction.

Most people who weld didn't go to school or have any formal training, and what they know how to weld, they may only know one way to do it. So whenever they see another way to weld, it's like it threatens their pride or something, and they're left with this stubborn perspective of "it can only be welded my way".

A perfect example of this is a co worker I used to work with before I was an instructor. I was certified in flux core and all he did was spool gun aluminum, which requires a push angle at all times. Work got slow and they tossed him next to me to help with a pressure vessel. He couldn't figure out why he was having trouble flux core welding. He was using a push angle the same as when he welded aluminum, and it wasn't working out for him. As soon as I tried to tell him to pull it he just said "oh bull S%$&" and eventually the shop foreman had to correct him.

If it's one thing we should all learn from Jody's videos, its that in some cases there is only ONE way to weld it, and in other cases there are half a dozen different ways to skin the cat.

[rahtreelimbs]

I don't think the debate needs a whole thread devoted to it!

[AKweldshop]

What's the debate?

[VincenzioVonHook]

What's the debate?

Chicken or fish

[Poland308]

Tough call I like chicken and fish.

[MinnesotaDave]

Tough call I like chicken and fish.

I'm partial to venison

[Poland308]

If chicken is pull and fish is push what's that make deer?

[MinnesotaDave]

If chicken is pull and fish is push what's that make deer?

Stick welding

[Poland308]

Well now! Good thing I eat em all.

[soutthpaw]

What's the debate?

This, and why is the temp hire staring over your shoulder instead of working? Pull more penetration, push less.

[VincenzioVonHook]

What's the debate?

This, and why is the temp hire staring over your shoulder instead of working? Pull more penetration, push less.

I have no life and normally work through most of my lunch break........

[welditforyou]

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I have watched Jody's video several times, and it seems to me that the push technique digs in a little better than the pull does. That being said, I weld structural during the day and tend to use a push technique quite often.

PS; I went to attach some pics and cannot find a way to do that. wth! Why is that?


Jim
Fixed it!

The pics aren't in order. The top one should be last. It shows the weld after cleaning.

[welditforyou]

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I can weld left handed too, but generally speaking my approach is somewhat straight in to a slight push as I watch the metalcore wire burn into the joint. Penetration . . . yeah, I get it.

I've been in the rail shop for the last couple of weeks using hard wire and CO2. I tend to push it as well most of the time not ALL the time.


Jim