Welding Tips and Tricks

Going to weld in a parachute bar in my "street outlaws" Turbo charged CHevelle... Lol

Anyone used this E80S-D2 on 4130 ? How does it weld?

So far I have read NOT to use 4130 rod unless you are heat treating the part afterward...

This is the best info I have found below..

A. Although there are several good filler materials, ER80S-D2, is one you should consider. This filler material is capable of producing welds that approximate the strength of 4130. ER70S-2 is an acceptable alternative to ER80S-D2, as is ER70S-6, although the weld strength will be slightly lower

Hey there.

I'm no expert, but I believe if you search you'll find Jody recommends ER70S-2 for 4130 CroMo.

Cheers,


Kym

What's your wall thickness on the 4130?
You may need to normalize it after welding.

A buddy of mine did a lot of circle track roll cages out of 4130 and he swore by ER100S-1

Here's that video of Jody's:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Is47-VwkyNg



Kym

The EAA (Experimental Aircraft Assn.) recommends E80 rod for 4130 in airframes (and, yes, guys, I finally found my library of EAA stuff), so I don't think you'll go wrong with E80S-2 for a 'chute attachment.

Steve S

NORMALIZE!! Voodoo myth unless you have a BIG oven.

Here's a good read on the subject. Also, here is the webpage from Welding Tips & Tricks for the video Kym posted above.

Anything smaller then .120 you will not have to normalize. Er80s-d2 is the best choice of filler, er70s-2 would also be acceptable. You will have absolutely no issues with either.

ER70-S2 gives better elongation than ER80-D2. Most chassis builders in open wheel use ER70-S2 allows chassis to deform more as car takes multiple hits from flipping. Some do use ER80 either for certain areas or whole car. Your case either one will work just fine. don't burn up the metal and don't force cool it. Don't weld on tubes that are extremely cold (since its winter) or that will speed cool the joint.

Notice I differ from AFR on filler choice I would prefer to drive and wreck a chassis welded with ER70-S2 any day of the year over ER80. ER80 cars are a little more brittle and tend to come apart where the ER70 bends more.

I've seen your crash test experiments. I'd go with your experience on this one any day.

It's only .083" wall

Lot's of great stuff here I never thought of... Like the welding on cold tube...

My shop never gets below 50 because I leave the heat set there.... Even if the tube is say 40 deg. F would it be worth it the warm the material with a torch slightly first? Or is that not cold enough to worry about?

Thanks for all the advice everyone

Most testing is done in a controlled lab at 68-70 degrees F at 70% humidity or so. I would warm it up with a torch personally, but you don't need to get it hot enough to burn you or make it uncomfortable to hold or anything

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From what I've read, it's the higher Carbon content that may cause the extra brittleness when using ER80S-D2 filler rod. But then it is also said that a minor stress-relieve at 1hr-per-in of thickness at 1100°F or so, followed by a slow-to-normal air-cool, will allow the carbon to diffuse back into the joint properly to reduce brittleness.

Here you will find a little bit of info on 4130 that I have found:

4130 Link in my Google Drive

Oscar wrote:From what I've read, it's the higher Carbon content that may cause the extra brittleness when using ER80S-D2 filler rod. But then it is also said that a minor stress-relieve at 1hr-per-in of thickness at 1100°F or so, followed by a slow-to-normal air-cool, will allow the carbon to diffuse back into the joint properly to reduce brittleness.

Here you will find a little bit of info on 4130 that I have found:

4130 Link in my Google Drive

If you have no idea what the procedure for welding 4130 in a motorsports application is, then don't comment.

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dirtmidget33 wrote:ER70-S2 gives better elongation than ER80-D2. Most chassis builders in open wheel use ER70-S2 allows chassis to deform more as car takes multiple hits from flipping. Some do use ER80 either for certain areas or whole car. Your case either one will work just fine. don't burn up the metal and don't force cool it. Don't weld on tubes that are extremely cold (since its winter) or that will speed cool the joint.

Notice I differ from AFR on filler choice I would prefer to drive and wreck a chassis welded with ER70-S2 any day of the year over ER80. ER80 cars are a little more brittle and tend to come apart where the ER70 bends more.

That's it ER70S-2 for me... Especially since my flat brackets and tabs are mild steel

Oscar, the first half of your post is right.

No one normalizes tubing in their chassis, and if they do, it's black magic and they never talk about it.

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GreinTime wrote:Oscar, the first half of your post is right.

No one normalizes tubing in their chassis, and if they do, it's black magic and they never talk about it.

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Normalizing is actually quite rare, even in the aircraft industry. Most manufacturers have developed PWHT (Post-weld heat treatment) procedures to accomplish similar results.

Steve S

adrynalinjunkie I suggest turning up heat in garage to 60 to 65 degrees several hours before you do your welding. General rule of thumb if air temperature is under 60 degrees warm the tubes up. If you warm tubes up instead of turning up thermostat just use a propane torch don't need anything extreme.

not sure of your welding experience with tubes just throwing some stuff out there if you already know it just disregard it.

Make sure you are not gonna weld on a tube that is totally closed off on both sides. If you weld on an enclosed space the air pressure will blow out your puddle when you try to close the weld. To avoid this issue drill vent holes in the tubing at the junctions. If you do this thru out the frame, you will never have a blowout.

Here is an example lets say we have this junction. (please excuse the use of paper for tubes grabbed it out of printer instead of going outside for tubing. its freezing outside Drill a small hole in the center of the junction 1/16 or 3/32 inch is normally enough. This will give you vent holes and also if you decide to backpurge that option is there also since the entire project will be connected by vent holes. The other thing is get your fit ups perfect and I mean perfect. If your fit up is perfect with no gaps you will not be putting excessive heat in the joint trying to fill the gap. Excessive heat leads to a brittle heat effected zone.

Clean the tubes at joints to bright shiny metal. Remove that thin layer of mill scale, Welds easier and cleaner. don't forget to clean the inside of it too It will also make a better looking weld too.

DO NOT take an OA torch to your tubing trying to normalize, anneal, temper or any of the voodoo heating changing methods. IF you have a part that needs to be heat treated lets say you built a spindle with 4130 and used 4130 filler which is a totally different then what was suggested earlier. Take it to someone that has a oven and experience heat treating parts. they will know what temp part needs to be heated to. What temp it needs to stay at for certain amount of time and how to cool it down properly.

For just welding 4130 N tubing with TIG using ER70-S2 or ER80-D2 you just need to let part cool on its own and not overheat the tubing. if over .120 wall then preheat tubing to avoid it from cooling to fast.

cant type tonight edited this thing several times

GreinTime wrote:

Oscar wrote:From what I've read, it's the higher Carbon content that may cause the extra brittleness when using ER80S-D2 filler rod. But then it is also said that a minor stress-relieve at 1hr-per-in of thickness at 1100°F or so, followed by a slow-to-normal air-cool, will allow the carbon to diffuse back into the joint properly to reduce brittleness.

Here you will find a little bit of info on 4130 that I have found:

4130 Link in my Google Drive

If you have no idea what the procedure for welding 4130 in a motorsports application is, then don't comment.

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Oh, I have some idea, so I guess I'm good on the commenting part, thanks.