Welding Tips and Tricks

New guy here, and I have ran across a symbol that has me curious. The material is HR 120 to A36 basically is a mild steel ring approximately 16 inches in id by 4 1/2 with a 3/16 thick HR 120 ring the has to be welded to the OD with 556 1/16 filler. I have no issues with that but the symbol on one end calls all for a min 1/8 bead and the other is calling out a convex bead profile with a bevel that has to be welded all around but it also has a 2-3 on the bottom right side of the symbol. Am I correct in assuming this is for heat management. The part is for a industrial high heat furnace and the makes sense why they are wanting HR120. This may be a stupid question but I'm trying educate myself as buch as possible on this before I weld it out. I've already machined the fixtures for it because is has a very high tolerance call out for location. Sorry I don't have a pics not all out to take them, thanks in advance for any guidance.

The number to the RIGHT of the symbol is going to be the WELD SIZE, or DEPTH OF PREPARATION and EFFECTIVE THROAT
The number to the LEFT of the symbol is going to be the weld LENGTH or LENGTH AND PITCH
ABOVE the reference line is the OPPOSITE SIDE of where the arrow is pointing
BELOW the reference line is the SAME (ARROW) SIDE of where the arrow is pointing

Are you describing the numbers 3-2 to be to the immediate RIGHT of the symbol for bevel, or are those numbers contained WITHIN the symbol for bevel? If it is within the bevel symbol, it is a ROOT OPENING

Now, I might be wrong here, but it sounds like you are welding this ring to the outer surface of the pipe? If this the the case, and the ring is not beveled, then you would be doing a fillet weld.

You can find descriptions of weld symbols anywhere on the inter-web. Feel free to ask questions! You are going to hate for saying this, but I wish I had a picture of the symbol!
Gary

Yes the numbers 2-3 are to the left side of the bevel symbol, underneath the all around symbol. I figured this was length and pitch but not toured why it would be welded all around and have a length and pitch. In the past I've done this job and it's always been weld all around while keeping heat input as low As possible. The hr 120 plate showed up today and I'll have to CNC plasma burn the shape then prep it for final weld to the A36 pipe. Am I needing to do a length and pitch weld then go back and tie in the pitch so that its welded all around ?

I'll try to describe the symbol, it's is a standard left to right down arrow with split v on the far left describing the filler as 556 the at the top center it has a convex symbol, below that it has a bevel symbol and to the right it has 2-3. Right above it were the arrow breaks down to the weld area it's has a full circle. Not sure if that helps. I'll try to steal a pic of it in the A.M.

Welder kurt wrote:Yes the numbers 2-3 are to the left side of the bevel symbol, underneath the all around symbol. I figured this was length and pitch but not toured why it would be welded all around and have a length and pitch. In the past I've done this job and it's always been weld all around while keeping heat input as low As possible. The hr 120 plate showed up today and I'll have to CNC plasma burn the shape then prep it for final weld to the A36 pipe. Am I needing to do a length and pitch weld then go back and tie in the pitch so that its welded all around ?

I've never seen a weld length and pitch used with the all around symbol, not sure that's a valid use, however you could possibly question the customer, although getting as much information before having that conversation is a good idea.

You wrote that you've done this job in the past, so it seems the symbol has changed, it this change noted in the revision table on the drawing?
Also remember many weld symbols are drawn by someone NOT familiar with how they're used.

I agree completly my boss is completely lost and that dosent surprise me at all, I'm assuming it's going to be welded all around. But 7 k peice of material and a brand new print with same part and dimensions on it for the exception of the 2-3 just had me confused

I drew it out on a peice of paper best I can not sure how to post it on a I pad, I can take a pic and email it to some one. It's may be something I missing but I've never had this 2-3 call out before.

[attachment=0]image.jpg

It suggests to me this is a beveled open root weld, with 2-3 passes permitted to perform the operation.

Steve S

Thanks you Otto it was a bit confusing because previous prints didn't have this, the company I work for does large scale industrial fab I believe the smallest thing we build weighs 90,000 pounds completed and the prints are just horrible

I have to admit, that "2-3" made me think a bit, but there's little else it could mean. The number of passes permitted should appear in the WPS, rather than on the drawing, but no rule says it can't be both.

Steve S

I agree and what your saying makes way more sense too me, I'm the only guy in the shop that can tig, everyone else migs and I showed the print around and had no help what so ever, the prints are constantly changing without revisions, I figured someone on here could shed some light on it for me and I really appreciate everyone's help.

I'd be hesitatant to use a drawing that you in fact know has been revised with out a proper Engineering change order.

I've got a engineering background and did a lot of cad work, with out the proper paper work, revision history and signatures..the revision ment nothing.

I am very scetchy about it I went with ottos advise on it, now there wanting me to weld it out all the way around using pitch and length from the symbol 2-3, I made it it clear that I'll do it there way because the boss says so, but this has gone on before with these Mickey Mouse napkin prints

As far as revisions go the print is non existent on changes or revisions, I can read prints but this is getting out of control it seems

For comparison this is a a real print from some parts on the CNC side

Kurt,

This IS getting really sketchy.

These are NOT standard symbols. I have a folder full of them, and this bullshit does not appear.

I'd almost suggest it's a "stitch" pattern (2 inches weld, three inches not [also not a standard way to designate a stitch weld]), but it cannot be since the symbols says, "weld 100%" (the circle where the arrow turns). It can't possibly mean a differential in leg length as your boss seems to suggest, since no units are given and it's pictured as a groove weld where leg-length does not apply.

It's time to get the dick who wrote that to stand up and explain himself, because (as others have said) if it's not a "signed off on" revision documented on the print, it's some asshole's note and has no useful meaning to anyone but him.

Steve S

Update on the part haha, they want a length and pitch weld all around and the company I work for took it upon themselves to use HR120 for the entire assembly instead of using A36 as per the drawing. The HR120 is a supposed to be a ring 3/16 thick by 8 inches wide welded to the OD of a A 36 pipe but they took it upon themselves (my company) to go against the print and do it all out of HR120. When I asked if the owner of the part wanted this I was basically told to shut up and Tig it together. I'm at a loss at the stupidity, I believe I need to take my skills elsewhere befor much longer

I have a lot to learn especially on welding symbols and process but I've spent 16 years in machine shops and I always go by the print period. I've looked online for 2 days and like you said I can't find anything like this, I'm going to try and get a pic of the entire print tomorrow and PM it to you so you can see the whole thing for your self Otto this might help you see exactly what I'm looking at.

@Welder Kurt - You just can't escape stupidity. Sometimes you need patience to deal with it. What I used to do is keep a log book, of who said what, when, where about anything to do with the job. I have had it happen where the General Contractor will come back at me after the fact, and want to know why I did so-and-so change. Because I have a log book, I can look up the day, time and people involved, what was said and what was decided. I have had superintendents come back at me with the "I never said that" or "I didn't mean that" but, hey! It is in the book. I might be accused of 'writing it down wrong', but that starts to look flimsy and weak when I can show the detail of record that I keep. One other thing! I keep these logs for a long, long time. Just a year or two ago, I threw away the last ones that I had from running work in the 1990's.

Boomer I have to do the same thing, but as I figured everything changed on me again at the last minute, instead of the 2-3 they wanted me to do a 2 inch weld and skip one inch on a 40 inch dia and to top it of its actually a sleeve for some sort of coupling that goes inside a high heat furnace. The furnace can fit a full size van inside it to give an idea of the scale of it, I'm not sure of the temps that it goes up to but I used to weld this part all the way around and never had a issue I'm not sure what there doing changing it.

Welder kurt wrote:Boomer I have to do the same thing, but as I figured everything changed on me again at the last minute, instead of the 2-3 they wanted me to do a 2 inch weld and skip one inch on a 40 inch dia and to top it of its actually a sleeve for some sort of coupling that goes inside a high heat furnace. The furnace can fit a full size van inside it to give an idea of the scale of it, I'm not sure of the temps that it goes up to but I used to weld this part all the way around and never had a issue I'm not sure what there doing changing it.

So many changes! Like I say, I keep a little log book and record everything. I don't like for the crew to see me writing in the book, but I do keep one! As I say, you record the changes, who said what and when, and you have the record. They can deny it later, but if you have an extensively detailed reference ... it ain't likely that "they" will not believe you

+1.

My logbook has helped me out more than once...

I don't try to hide that I write it all down - I use the (true) excuse that I have a poor memory doe to a brain injury.
Also, my work means I have to note down different meter readings, file names etc,. So it's vital...

the owner of the furnace came in this morning to verify a test fire of the furnace and the heating bypass completely failed, imaging A giant roots style supercharger spinning in reverse pulling super heated air into a furnace, the air has to choke down and go through the assembly that I welded to the print just as I was told to do. The ring that I skip welded per the print blew out and broke apart, meaning my welds were sound but the material pulled away from the weld. As I've said before I've done this job before and never had a issue it has always passed customer inspection on weld size and test fire. And taking Boomers and others advice I kept notes and made a copy of the actual blue print because the boss and lead man blamed me for it and the original print was some how misplaced when the customer arrived. After I showed the customer the print I was cleared but the company I work for lost the contract. And I was let go shortly after, the customer of the part is offering me a position at his company to build all their duplex parts for their furnaces so we will see what happens. I want to thank everyone on here for their help and sharing their knowledge on this nightmare with me. I'm going to put up my back ground info in the introduction section so that maybe I can return the favor to others on this forum.

Kurt,

You should also put up the name of this sketchy outfit that put you in this position. This may protect someone from going up that same creek, minus a paddle.

To play safe, use qualifiers like, "In my opinion", for anything you can't back up with solid documents and/or reliable witnesses.

If you're in a "right to work" state, you have little recourse under the law, due to the "at will" definition of work. If not, you might consider consulting a labor lawyer, as their grounds for your discharge is THEIR failure to perform.

I do hope this offer from the customer works out and turns in to a good thing!

Steve S