[raticus]

am installing a .120 wall mild steel tubing full cage in my drag car, an addition to my 6-point roll bar... in welding 10 fishmouth connections, i'm stumped on one... am having a tremendous problem fighting what seems to be contamination... all my other welds are ok, good penetration, little or no contamination, though not the prettiest welds... but this one weld, it started bubbling up... so i tried to 'fix' it... just made it a lot worse... decided to grind it off and restart, unfortunately i can only grind so much off due to space issues getting a grinder in there, but got most of it off... tried to weld it again, new sharp tungsten, cleaned the joint, set my gas flow up higher to 30 (slight breeze on and off, working outdoors... was only using 20 before), used acetone to clean it... and still bubbling up... tried another pass to attempt to push it out, but no go... any suggestions? i drilled some small gas escape holes (didn't have any on any of the other weld joints and yet they were fine), have my Miller Diversion 180 set at 120amps, using a foot pedal, straight argon... and tried various different tungstens to no avail... about to stab myself in the eye... thanks for any tips

[dynasty200sd]

If you have blocked all angles wind can come from, and still having trouble, one thing to make sure of is to not kink your gas hose right where it enters under the torch's handle. What cup size are you using, tungsten diameter and type, how much electrode stick-out, and are you using a standard collet body or a gas lens?

As for the kinked gas hose; when I would weld my torch acted kind of like a flame thrower when striking an arc with excessive porosity and severe tungsten erosion. For a while I kept wondering if there was oil, or my shielding gas was set too high until one day I realized I was putting a kink into my gas hose. The bottom corner-edge of the handle was sometimes kinking the gas hose when wrapping the power cable and hose around my forearm.

[noddybrian]

One thing against the Tig process is the slightest thing can cause weld issues - it's not always easy to figure the problem - obviously working outside makes keeping gas cover a problem - it maybe your problem is as simple as the shape of the joint / torch orientation & wind giving gas cover problems - upping the CFH is not always going to help - in fact I'd say too much flow is more likely to create problems due to turbulence - using a gas lens will help with this - to rule out the more likely issues with gas / machine / operator error ( !! ) can you move the welder indoors somewhere with no draft & weld a piece of scrap tubing in the same joint configuration ? - if this welds fine I would say either it's gas cover OR the metal itself ! - often steel will have minor inconsistencies in from manufacture - you may be unlucky to have a small area of tube that has a contaminant in & is boiling out when hot - or the fit up of the joint is less good & the pool is dragging contamination from the INSIDE of the tube where you may not have been able to clean - obviously if you weld two open ends you can clan the inside with an abrasive roll on a die grinder - but a saddle joint you can only clean one - if your weld pool is penetrating the wall thickness it can drag anything that was on the inside of the pipe - some new pipe is coated in a protective oil - if you rule out all the probable other causes work on the assumption it's in the metal so trying to re-flow an existing weld will make it worse usually - the only thing I know of that may work is get the largest filler rod you have - lay it in the corner of the joint & try to light up on it so you melt filler at the same time or before the base metal so the de-oxidizers in the filler act before there is a large pool - keep the filler in using the laywire method - anytime you try to get a pool first before adding the filler it will keep boiling out impurities.

( sorry if I rambled - I weld better than I write ! - also this is just based on my self taught theory - I'm sure others with formal Tig training will reply soon - possible with a better informed opinion - good luck on the car )

[Superiorwelding]

am installing a .120 wall mild steel tubing full cage in my drag car, an addition to my 6-point roll bar... in welding 10 fishmouth connections, i'm stumped on one... am having a tremendous problem fighting what seems to be contamination... all my other welds are ok, good penetration, little or no contamination, though not the prettiest welds... but this one weld, it started bubbling up... so i tried to 'fix' it... just made it a lot worse... decided to grind it off and restart, unfortunately i can only grind so much off due to space issues getting a grinder in there, but got most of it off... tried to weld it again, new sharp tungsten, cleaned the joint, set my gas flow up higher to 30 (slight breeze on and off, working outdoors... was only using 20 before), used acetone to clean it... and still bubbling up... tried another pass to attempt to push it out, but no go... any suggestions? i drilled some small gas escape holes (didn't have any on any of the other weld joints and yet they were fine), have my Miller Diversion 180 set at 120amps, using a foot pedal, straight argon... and tried various different tungstens to no avail... about to stab myself in the eye... thanks for any tips

I have a Diversion and would say that a kinked hose is unlikely unless you are holding it weird. Off hand it sounds like the tube is building up pressure and literally blowing back in your weld puddle. I have ran into issues like this with hand railing. We ended up drilling a 1/4"-3/8" hole to remedy our problem. How big of a hole are you drilling and where is it located? My other guesses would be that it got contaminated on the first weld and you simply are not able to grind out the contamination, thus not able to fix it. The other would be the wind in your environment. The others are correct, to much gas flow and you will cause a turbulent effect sucking in air into the welds.
The biggest help will be a picture of your joint, your specs and where the vent hole is located.
-Jonathan

[Braehill]

Raticus,
You could try putting a purge on the inside of the tube to possibly eliminate fumes coming from the inside working their way through the weld.

Len

[Otto Nobedder]

Might be a good candidate for an aluminum foil argon dam around the joint. Those fish-mouth joint configurations have a real tendancy to create wierd gas-flow effects, so the more argon you can trap around the weld, and the more gas movement you can restrict, the better the odds of avoiding drawing air into your gas stream. With an argon dam, you can drop your gas flow back down, possibly as low as 15 on a calm day, to further reduce "mixing".

Without seeing it for myself, this is just a guess and suggestion.

Steve S

[Oscar]

slight breeze

from someone else that works outdoors, there is your problem.

you need to have NO breeze

[Otto Nobedder]

slight breeze

from someone else that works outdoors, there is your problem.

you need to have NO breeze

Sure, that's preferred.

But sometimes inpractical. I've seen and done code welds "in the open air".

It can be done, and is, every day, on industrial sites around the world.

It takes mitigation for the draft/breeze/wind, and you must adapt to the circumstances.

Yes, you can TIG outside on a windy day.

Steve S

[Oscar]

Sure, point taken. For experienced welders, that is. . For newbies, such as myself, the less [distracting] variables there are, the better overall. Why fight things you dont have to, especially when trying to diagnose problems?

[RichardH]

I might think awkward joint = going too slow = boiling out bad stuff from the back side. In my case, it's usually cutting fluid that I failed to clean out of the pipe.

[raticus]

Thanks so much for all those suggestions... I'm leaning more to the two possibilities of oil in the inside of the tube and pressure inside the tube exacerbating the problem even more possibly, pulling the oil through even more. I didn't have as bad problem with the breeze with the other weld joints, only momentary issues, so i don't think wind was the major cause of it, especially after my multiple attempts to redo it, the result was the same each time, breeze or no breeze. The particular joint is a saddle joint (where the drivers side left upright connects to the upper halo bend), and my last attempt at drilling a vent hole, i only used a very small drill bit (less than an 1/8th of an inch). I never even considered cleaning the insides of the tubes (duh!), weird how I never even thought about that ( was so diligent at cleaning the outside of the tubes it never dawned on me to clean the inside too). And especially with my beginner lack of skills and probably blowing through multiple times as i got stuck trying to move my hand and putting too much heat into it, promptly blowing through and sucking every bit of contamination from inside. I had similar problems with several other welds but on a much smaller scale, but was able to lay down more filler rod quickly to at least on the outside of the weld, showing no bubbling through (contamination). Of course most of my welds are typical beginner welds, and my cage would never pass a more stringent tech inspection (my car is currently only a sub-11.50 second ET (elapsed time in the 1/4 mile) car, which only required side/door bars, but i went ahead and installed a complete cage anyway (front uprights/top halo/dash bar), which would be good until i reach the 9.50 second ET class, at that point the cage would have to be certified (for obvious reasons, a low 9 second car is a LOT faster than an 11 or 10 second car), but i figured I'd have to redo that part of the cage anyway at that point (I will be doing engine upgrades later this year that will put my into the 9's). It's just a learning experience for me anyway, most racers (smart people), would have experienced welders do their cages (i had someone else do my original roll bar), but i always would rather do it the hard way myself (half the fun of drag racing is building your own stuff).

As for my welding setup, I'm only using the stock shroud that came with the welder, which is small... I'm definitely looking into a larger 'lens' to possibly help with any wind issues, though that may not be easy, or even impossible to use in tight areas. My techniques have been piss poor, having a very hard time just trying to hold and move my torch and see what i'm doing (I wish they made welders contact lenses so i could fit my head into tight spots better!). When i practiced on the bench, i was able to weld up a similar tubing configuration (using the same 1-3/4" tubing in a saddle joint), that came out pretty decent, but doing it in the car in extremely odd uncomfortable positions with poor view and angle of torch, has been a battle (lots 'n lots of colorful expletives!)...

I'm going to grind off the weld again as best i can, and drill at least a 1/4" hole as suggested in both tubes. I was thinking of maybe making a straight cut into the weld with a cutting disk, to open it up enough so that i can possibly spray the inside with acetone. Also i've been using 3/32" filler rod, though i've tried to remelt the contaminated area with no rod at all, and of course that did nothing and only made it worse. Wish me luck. Thanks again for all the input!

[Otto Nobedder]

Get your head in the tight spots?

Check this out:

https://arc513.com/

I've seen a similar product that offers several was to protect your face from the arc, like a cloth balaklava, but for TIG welding (no spatter), SPF 45 or stronger on exposed skin works great.

Steve S

[raticus]

oh wow, that's exactly what i need.... thanks!

i've seen just regular dark shades for oxy-acetylene or maybe even MIG, but didn't know they made an auto-darkening one for TIG...

[Oscar]

well I hope you figure it out then. Post up pictures of your progress. You never know what someone might eventually suggest to help you out even more.

[noddybrian]

I looked at those goggles for confined space jobs - for a small amount extra they do a very small close fitting face mask that clips to them - I'd be interested if anyone has tried them - downside is they are only available direct from Korea ! now I'm not especially patriotic as there is precious little made here & is no guarantee of quality anyway - but seriously - I'm just not happy sending money to Korea & hoping for the best !!

[Otto Nobedder]

They're available on e-bay.

Safer buy with pay-pal

Steve S

[noddybrian]

Yes - I've seen them on Ebay - I quite like the look of them - but it's still direct from Korea the ones listed on UK Ebay - Pay Pal & Ebay don't work too hard for individual buyers to resolve problems - if the seller is doing much trade with them that's where their profit comes from - I had fairly bad experience with this - some sellers are good - I use " Shop River " for various welding related items & have always been pleased with the service & product - I can't explain why - but I have a mental stumbling block concerning Korea - maybe it's unfounded or irrational ! if you hear of anyone trying one I'd like to hear a review - what we need is someone that has never got an auto dark that works in confined spaces & is paid pretty well - he could afford to try one out & let us poor welders know how it worked out !!!!!!!! anyone spring to mind you know ?

[Otto Nobedder]

I've suggested them at work. At least one pair for the tight work.

They're about to buy several $450ish autodark hoods with hard-hat headgear from AirGas, and I'm going to remind them. Maybe they can slip it in the budget.

I've not even taken time to read reviews on them. It just the developement of an idea I had, and I was thrilled to see it. (I'd have been more thrilled if I'd patented and documented the idea... )

A further look at the company's products produced this:

http://www.servoreinternational.com/

And this site lists a Servore distributor in the USA, and one in OZ.

http://www.autoliftweldinghelmet.com/alparts.html

Steve S

[noddybrian]

I find it strange that no one has come up with the idea before - but I find it even stranger that it's from Korea ! - apologies to any member from there - but I don't regard them as an originator of anything much - generally " made in Korea " is not what you want to see on stuff - maybe things are changing & we just need to adjust our attitude - always laughed at the bit on " Back To The Future " where " the Doc " is inspecting the burned out I/C from the lightning strike & is astonished his future self used a part from Japan ! - he can't believe it when " Marty " say all the best stuff comes from there !

So if your up for innovation & patent - how about this Tig glove idea - made for welders by a welder ?

[Otto Nobedder]

I've seen "vaguely" similar ideas before... They make an auto-dark lense to fit cutting-style goggles (with the rectangular opening), but I hate that style goggle with just the weight of the glass in it. Can't imagine having an auto-dark with batteries in one...

Steve S

[dynasty200sd]

BTW: There is N. Korea and S. Korea which obviously South Korea is our ally, and I would guess these Auto-darkening Goggles come from S. Korea being N. Korea is basically cut-off from the rest of the world due to trade restrictions.