[NT Unique]

Hey, howd'y everyone.
New to the forum but not new to the site itself, don't quite know how I missed the fact that there is a forum for so long.

Anyhoo

My collective problem is this. I run 2 ac/dc TIG welders in my workshop. One is a MIG-O-MAG 220 and the other is a Fronius Magic Wave 220. Both have been good machines. Both have suffered from overheating the torchs ( both have had 26's with 4m long torches). I have purchesed a couple generic water coolers and have fitted Parweld WP20 torches to both (8m long). I have to say that the Parweld torches are a really nice quality torch, they are tiny and well made. I have fallen in love with the WP20 setups.
However the quality of the welds has gone down with both the machines, noticeably. The following is a list of the symptons

*Both machines struggle to produce a shinny weld, they look good but are dull
*Both machines now require around 15-20 Ltrs/min argon flow (is this a sympton ofthe WP20's)
*The Mig-o-mag really struggles with balance, if I turn it down I can get a nice shinny electrode, but if I turn it up the electorde goes grey, "balls up" to double the thickness and will struggle to get over 150amps without the tip drooping.
*Both welders suffer from a slight grainy dull finish on the welds.

The Fronius can weld up to 160 amps with a 2.4mm electrode and the mig-o-mag can only reach around 120amps with a 3.2mm with out suffering problems.
Both machines are using Zirconiated electrodes.

A couple of minor questions I have unanswered are
*do the water cooled torches require to reach an operating temp? ( I have noticed some water coolers have a termostat)
*is it normal for small torches to have to have high gas settings?
*could it be possible that the power cable could reduce the weld quality?
*would the length of the cable attribute to the loss of performance?
*could the type of coolant affect the weld quality?

Keep in mind that the Fronius in particular was performing beyond normal quality with a 4m air cooled torch, changed over to the water cooled set up (same gas cylinder) and dropped performance.

BUT.......if I weld with either machine for over 5-10min straight then the quality returns. WTF?

I have hunted for the answer (within my wallets restraints) for about 6-8 months with no answer. My only thoughts are to change the main power cable over to another brand an see what happens, but this is a fairly expensive poke in the dark, any help would be appreciated.

Cheers from OZ

George

[Mike]

Hi George

Cant help ith your issue.

Only can offer some advice.

Add your location to your Sig. May have some near you that can help in person.

Regards: M J Mauer Andover, Ohio

[Otto Nobedder]

The coolant can have an effect. The major manufacturers formulate their own, and only distilled water should be used to dilute them. The reasons are that tap water contains dissolved minerals (as ions) which are electrcally conductive, and automotive antifreeze usually contains corrosion inhibiters that were not intended to flow through a high-current conductor. Both will tend to bleed power from your torch lead, which seems to fit your description. In HF AC mode this can be very pronounced AND skew your balance. The length of your cable will affect how pronouned the effect is, as well.

Your gas consumtion sound about right compared to the -20 series torches I've used. If you're not using a gas lens (OK, lense, since you're using litres ), changing to one will reduce consumption somewhat.

As to why the quality improves after continuous welding, I'm guessing it has something to do with the current's effect on whatever is in the coolant that may or may not be part of your problem.

If you find a solution, please post, as others may encounter the same problem.

Cheers, and Merry Christmas.

Steve

[NT Unique]

Thanks Steve.

I'll confess right now that untill I purchased the water cooler and torch set up I had no idea of the in's and out's. There is no local welding instatute that I can go to and do a course. So yes I'm guilty of putting automotive coolant in it...............an maybe a bit of tap water.

All a bit embarrassing

Don't know if I'll get away with ducking into work on christmas eve to play with it, I'll change over to plane distilled water. Any suggestions on what I should flush the line with?

Thanks in advance

[Otto Nobedder]

If you've had tap water in it for a while, you might consider flushing it with a DILUTE muriatic acid solution. Say 50ml/L? Then flush that out with staight distilled water.

Please let me know what effect this has on the performance, as I'm curious to know whether the symptoms can be reversed. The last time I encountered this, we replaced the torch and cable (on a rental machine that had been treated to the auto antifreeze/tap water thing by the supplier!) We kept the new torch when the machine went back, of course. I wonder if they ever figured it out?

Good luck,

Steve

[weldin mike 27]

Hey there,

Otto, thats 10 points for great info. Straight to the point with really helpful info. i hope it helps out cos it is one of the best posts i've read.

I've always known that you had to put de-ionised/ distilled water in water coolers but never knew why. Great stuff.

Mick

[NT Unique]

Well, I did manage to duck out chriss eve back to the workshop to have a crack at cleaning the system. If I didn't I would have stewed on it over the break.
I put some tanker cleaner diluted in water through the system and let it cycle for about 20min, then drained it 95% and refilled it with water, cycled it and drained it 95% again. I tested the output water on some scrap ally to check for reminents of acid, well this took about 8-9 tank flushes (about 50ltrs) to fully clear! (I had to do it with tap water ). Then I lastly flushed with some more de ionized water, and re filled it.

Initial reactions were that the arc was instantly more stable, I spent about half an hour playing with settings, oh I also noticed that it would weld at much lower amps. Not sure whether this was just a result of paying closer attention to the setting (I have a torch amp adjustment so don't pay a huge amount of attention to the settings) or whether it was a result of the clean de ionized waters affect. I would normaly use about 50-60 amps for 3mm plate, I was using 35 amps in the end to achive a nice bead.

Overall, yea I think it has made a differance, just not the major differance I was hoping for. I'm thinking that the 20' lead is resulting in a minor performance drop. I am getting some lovley welds but they are not that mercury shinny bright that I was achiving with the 12' air cooled. I use a gas lens on all my torches too.

Thanks for all the imput guys, especially Steve. It was an angle that I hadn't acted on yet, ironicly I had questioned the coolant type at the local welding supply and they didn't even suggest that it might be an issue.

Cheer guys and don't over do it on the eggnog

[capozzoli]

I have to flush one of my water coolers out too. I was wondering if CLR would work?

Sometimes if the welds are not comming out clean it can be due to a small leak in the gas line or a loose conection. That can pull air into the line in small amounts and make for contamination.