Welding Tips and Tricks

At the flow regulator or the torch?

I've a CK flow tester (pea shooter) and notice quite a drop - some times 7 cfh between the flow regulator and the torch. I've been testing the machine for leaks and so far have found none. Haven't tested the torch or hose yet. However, this seems to be true with several torches I have. So, for now I think the torches/hoses don't leak.

For me, I have found setting the regulator by using the pea shooter gives me better results, especially when welding aluminum (water-cooled CK torch & 25' hose). But I am a beginner and have been doing this as a hobby for about 1 1/2 years.

I use the pea shooter (aka floating ball) type flowmeters at the tank to begin with.

So where do I set it? Just there at the tank. If I get porosity, I adjust the flow as needed, regardless of what the numbers on the flowmeter say. IOW, if it's too low, it's too low; and if it's too high, it's too high. In both cases I adust/fix as needed.

First thing is to determine if the tester and the flow meter on the bottle agree with each other. Connect the tester to the flow meter outlet with a short (non leaking) hose and compare the readings. If they differ then choose which one you want to believe - the tester probably.

The flow cannot drop along the hose unless there is a leak. If there is a difference in readings that is larger that that seen in the first test, there must be a leak.

Do the usual leak tests and make sure the torch (MIG) or torch hose (TIG) (what are you using?) is properly connected. If not a MIG Euro connector, sometimes the MIG lead is not properly inserted into the machine.

Jack

Oscar wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:34 pm I use the pea shooter (aka floating ball) type flowmeters at the tank to begin with.

So where do I set it? Just there at the tank. If I get porosity, I adjust the flow as needed, regardless of what the numbers on the flowmeter say. IOW, if it's too low, it's too low; and if it's too high, it's too high. In both cases I adust/fix as needed.

I agree but still make sure there is no leak.

Jack

Thanks Oscar and Jack.

I'm using an Everlast 255EXT. I contacted Everlast tech support and they supplied the procedure to find a leak(s). I'll remove the shroud tomorrow morning and see what gives. Will check several torches, also.

Curious though, have you checked the cfh at the torch against what was set at the flow regulator?

Jack Ryan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:42 pm First thing is to determine if the tester and the flow meter on the bottle agree with each other. Connect the tester to the flow meter outlet with a short (non leaking) hose and compare the readings. If they differ then choose which one you want to believe - the tester probably.

The flow cannot drop along the hose unless there is a leak. If there is a difference in readings that is larger that that seen in the first test, there must be a leak.

Do the usual leak tests and make sure the torch (MIG) or torch hose (TIG) (what are you using?) is properly connected. If not a MIG Euro connector, sometimes the MIG lead is not properly inserted into the machine.

Jack

I'm honestly not asking this to be a wise guy, but are you sure about that?

I'm largely ignorant of the topic, but there have been a number of discussions here and elsewhere about how flow meters are calibrated, and the output pressure is a factor. Since the gauge/scale on the flow meter is calibrated for the output pressure of the regulator I would think you'd get a different number if the peashooter wasn't calibrated similarly, but maybe I'm missing something.

Hopefully someone can chime in who understands this and confirm or correct me. I just roll with what the puddle and bead tells me

G-ManBart wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:04 pm

Jack Ryan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:42 pm First thing is to determine if the tester and the flow meter on the bottle agree with each other. Connect the tester to the flow meter outlet with a short (non leaking) hose and compare the readings. If they differ then choose which one you want to believe - the tester probably.

The flow cannot drop along the hose unless there is a leak. If there is a difference in readings that is larger that that seen in the first test, there must be a leak.

Do the usual leak tests and make sure the torch (MIG) or torch hose (TIG) (what are you using?) is properly connected. If not a MIG Euro connector, sometimes the MIG lead is not properly inserted into the machine.

Jack

I'm honestly not asking this to be a wise guy, but are you sure about that?

I'm largely ignorant of the topic, but there have been a number of discussions here and elsewhere about how flow meters are calibrated, and the output pressure is a factor. Since the gauge/scale on the flow meter is calibrated for the output pressure of the regulator I would think you'd get a different number if the peashooter wasn't calibrated similarly, but maybe I'm missing something.

Hopefully someone can chime in who understands this and confirm or correct me. I just roll with what the puddle and bead tells me

Absolutely.

I am not concerned about how well or otherwise the flow meters are calibrated. If there are no leaks, the flow is the same anywhere along the line. In this case, flow in the analogue of electrical current - the current is the same anywhere in a closed loop.

Jack


Jack

Jack Ryan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:45 pm

Oscar wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:34 pm I use the pea shooter (aka floating ball) type flowmeters at the tank to begin with.

So where do I set it? Just there at the tank. If I get porosity, I adjust the flow as needed, regardless of what the numbers on the flowmeter say. IOW, if it's too low, it's too low; and if it's too high, it's too high. In both cases I adust/fix as needed.

I agree but still make sure there is no leak.

Jack

Yes, absolutely. If turning up the gas flow a little bit doesn't help, then there's a leak somewhere or a draft coming in. I had a porosity issue a while back and it took me 6 hours to find the culprit: a very cheap gas lens collet body that looked otherwise meticulous. Go figure.

G-ManBart wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:04 pmthere have been a number of discussions here and elsewhere about how flow meters are calibrated, and the output pressure is a factor. Since the gauge/scale on the flow meter is calibrated for the output pressure of the regulator I would think you'd get a different number if the peashooter wasn't calibrated similarly, but maybe I'm missing something.

I feel there have been a number of incorrect discussions regarding the pressure as it relates to gauge-style "regulators" vs floating-ball "flowmeters". A while back I installed a few pressure regulators on my gas hoses. The first one was on my Franken-Mixer, and the 2nd one was on one of my TIGs. It was quite interesting to see exactly what was going on and having empirical evidence. But no one wants to listen to a hobbyist welder who only "collects" welding machines, even though this hobbyist has a formal degree'd education in Physics and Mathematics

Jack Ryan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:58 pm

G-ManBart wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:04 pm

Jack Ryan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:42 pm First thing is to determine if the tester and the flow meter on the bottle agree with each other. Connect the tester to the flow meter outlet with a short (non leaking) hose and compare the readings. If they differ then choose which one you want to believe - the tester probably.

The flow cannot drop along the hose unless there is a leak. If there is a difference in readings that is larger that that seen in the first test, there must be a leak.

Do the usual leak tests and make sure the torch (MIG) or torch hose (TIG) (what are you using?) is properly connected. If not a MIG Euro connector, sometimes the MIG lead is not properly inserted into the machine.

Jack

I'm honestly not asking this to be a wise guy, but are you sure about that?

I'm largely ignorant of the topic, but there have been a number of discussions here and elsewhere about how flow meters are calibrated, and the output pressure is a factor. Since the gauge/scale on the flow meter is calibrated for the output pressure of the regulator I would think you'd get a different number if the peashooter wasn't calibrated similarly, but maybe I'm missing something.

Hopefully someone can chime in who understands this and confirm or correct me. I just roll with what the puddle and bead tells me

Absolutely.

I am not concerned about how well or otherwise the flow meters are calibrated. If there are no leaks, the flow is the same anywhere along the line. In this case, flow in the analogue of electrical current - the current is the same anywhere in a closed loop.

Jack


Jack

I went back and saw that I missed the part about using the tester at the flow meter outlet...now it makes sense!

Oscar wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:17 am

G-ManBart wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:04 pmthere have been a number of discussions here and elsewhere about how flow meters are calibrated, and the output pressure is a factor. Since the gauge/scale on the flow meter is calibrated for the output pressure of the regulator I would think you'd get a different number if the peashooter wasn't calibrated similarly, but maybe I'm missing something.

I feel there have been a number of incorrect discussions regarding the pressure as it relates to gauge-style "regulators" vs floating-ball "flowmeters". A while back I installed a few pressure regulators on my gas hoses. The first one was on my Franken-Mixer, and the 2nd one was on one of my TIGs. It was quite interesting to see exactly what was going on and having empirical evidence. But no one wants to listen to a hobbyist welder who only "collects" welding machines, even though this hobbyist has a formal degree'd education in Physics and Mathematics

I don't get overly concerned with it because what I really care about is the final result, but I do find it interesting. I know what works when I'm welding...I've got bigger issues to worry about, like lack of skill/practice

It would be nice to have some sort of reference on the topic because it usually seems to come up when someone is experiencing a problem, and then people wind up arguing about theory rather than helping fix the problem. Maybe a dedicated thread would be useful and then we could just point to that...assuming it winds up with some sort of reliable information.

G-ManBart wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:57 am

Oscar wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:17 am

G-ManBart wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:04 pmthere have been a number of discussions here and elsewhere about how flow meters are calibrated, and the output pressure is a factor. Since the gauge/scale on the flow meter is calibrated for the output pressure of the regulator I would think you'd get a different number if the peashooter wasn't calibrated similarly, but maybe I'm missing something.

I feel there have been a number of incorrect discussions regarding the pressure as it relates to gauge-style "regulators" vs floating-ball "flowmeters". A while back I installed a few pressure regulators on my gas hoses. The first one was on my Franken-Mixer, and the 2nd one was on one of my TIGs. It was quite interesting to see exactly what was going on and having empirical evidence. But no one wants to listen to a hobbyist welder who only "collects" welding machines, even though this hobbyist has a formal degree'd education in Physics and Mathematics

I don't get overly concerned with it because what I really care about is the final result, but I do find it interesting. I know what works when I'm welding...I've got bigger issues to worry about, like lack of skill/practice

It would be nice to have some sort of reference on the topic because it usually seems to come up when someone is experiencing a problem, and then people wind up arguing about theory rather than helping fix the problem. Maybe a dedicated thread would be useful and then we could just point to that...assuming it winds up with some sort of reliable information.

Yes it would be nice, but then it turns to arguments real fast from what I've seen. There's always two sides that clash. Like you said, it's better to just tune the device (assuming it is working somewhat properly) until one obtains decent, repeatable results, to help solve the issue at hand.

Does a gas line not suffer the same effects as a compressed air line?

I remember reading a article a while back talking about CFH and PSI drop across long section of compressed air piping.

They mainly referenced elbows/bends being the largest cause of drop if I'm remembering it right.


I figured it was true because I also notice a slight CFH drop when comparing the flow meter settings to the actual at the cup measurements.



Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

You mentioned that your pea shooter tester was a CK. If the flow meter/regulator you are using is the one that came with your Everlast machine, then it is likely a piece of junk. I would trust the CK part over a no-name part every single time.

Toggatug wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:54 pm Does a gas line not suffer the same effects as a compressed air line?

I remember reading a article a while back talking about CFH and PSI drop across long section of compressed air piping.

They mainly referenced elbows/bends being the largest cause of drop if I'm remembering it right.


I figured it was true because I also notice a slight CFH drop when comparing the flow meter settings to the actual at the cup measurements.

Back pressure such as that will occur, but as far as I know, it should also directly impact the actual reading of the flow meter. E.g., if you set a flow meter with only a barb at the end to 20 CFH and then after the gas is flowing at 20 CFH hook a 100 foot line up to it with lots of bends, the reading of the flow meter will drop accordingly...you would have to further adjust the flow meter in order to get it back to your 20 CFH.

That's what i figured Spartan. General rule of thumb is over enough distance you'll see flow and pressure drops due to friction/turbulence in lines/pipes.


I remember shooting the shit with a seasoned pipe fitter and some of math he was talking about for flow ratings etc was quite phenomenal.


Probably doesnt come into play in a short 25ft Tig gas line near as much as a pipe system that runs a few kilometers around a factory.

Kinda wanna do some tests now when I get a minute....ha like that ever happens right?

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Spartan wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:37 pm You mentioned that your pea shooter tester was a CK. If the flow meter/regulator you are using is the one that came with your Everlast machine, then it is likely a piece of junk. I would trust the CK part over a no-name part every single time.

It's a CK flow meter/regulator in use. & fwiw - the original Everlast flow meter/regulator totally agrees with the CK flow meter/regulator. My original suspect was the Everlast unit.

Looks to be a leak between the inlet and the solenoid gas valve just inside the unit:





Pressure drop at the regulator after 5 -10 minutes or so:





Everlast will be sending a replacement under warranty.

To me... can't believe such a little leak makes such a difference. But the proof is in the pudding.
I think I will also test several torches to see if they may be contributing to the problem.

Thanks everyone for the comments and support. It sure helps with understanding this tig welding/machine obsession I have developed.

Toggatug wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:21 pm That's what i figured Spartan. General rule of thumb is over enough distance you'll see flow and pressure drops due to friction/turbulence in lines/pipes.


I remember shooting the shit with a seasoned pipe fitter and some of math he was talking about for flow ratings etc was quite phenomenal.


Probably doesnt come into play in a short 25ft Tig gas line near as much as a pipe system that runs a few kilometers around a factory.

Kinda wanna do some tests now when I get a minute....ha like that ever happens right?

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

You will see changes due to resistance in the line but once the line is full (equilibrium), the flow will be the same at each end. The flow does not drop along the line unless there is a leak.

Jack