I know you're already rolling your eyes, but yes, I'm completely new to welding. This is my introduction, but I wanted to post it here, in the topic area I'm here for.
I am a very hands on worker and I'm good with just about anything I put my mind to. I enjoy engine work, fiberglass, and woodwork.
I've always wanted to learn to weld, but being that it's a big investment for something that may not work out, it's always been on the back burner.
Well, I decided to build another boat-this one aluminum. I'm having a reputable company build the hull, but I'll have to make some small stuff like deck framing and the engine cradle.
I had a guy down here who just started learning to weld a year ago. He puts in a lot of practice, but here's no pro, just an older gentleman who wanted a new hobby. I recently had him weld part of my aluminum planar fin back onto an outdrive, and he charged me $100 to do a whopping 3 inch butt weld. I'm not kidding, he said it took him 4 hours to do. At that price, I would be buying him a new house to help weld some things for a boat. This is when I decided to learn myself.
I don't have time for classes (full time job and a full time engineering grad student), but I have an hour or so every night to practice, and I won't be doing anything on the boat until I am confident. I also don't want to learn from YouTube because it becomes the classic deal where you learn to do something from a video and someone comes along later and said "oh they didn't mention that you have to use this instead of that." So I'm here, to ask specific questions and hopefully get helpful answers.
I'm using 6061 aluminum, and I basically need to learn everything.
Welcome!
Do you have a TIG welder yet or still need to buy one?
Not to say it can't be done, but trying to learn how to TIG weld on aluminum is going to be very challenging. This same question comes up from time to time on a variety of forums and I can't think of one case where it's really worked.
I spent about 2-3 years TIG welding steel and stainless before I even tried aluminum and then spent an hour almost every night practicing for six months before I was comfortable enough to weld anything that was remotely important. Pretty much everything about aluminum is more critical compared with steel/stainless....torch angle, arc length, travel speed, etc, etc. All of that is probably why the local guy you took a part to had trouble with a simple weld...he's only been welding a year and aluminum is challenging.
Do you have a TIG welder yet or still need to buy one?
Not to say it can't be done, but trying to learn how to TIG weld on aluminum is going to be very challenging. This same question comes up from time to time on a variety of forums and I can't think of one case where it's really worked.
I spent about 2-3 years TIG welding steel and stainless before I even tried aluminum and then spent an hour almost every night practicing for six months before I was comfortable enough to weld anything that was remotely important. Pretty much everything about aluminum is more critical compared with steel/stainless....torch angle, arc length, travel speed, etc, etc. All of that is probably why the local guy you took a part to had trouble with a simple weld...he's only been welding a year and aluminum is challenging.
Miller Syncrowave 250DX TIGRunner
Miller Millermatic 350P
Miller Regency 200 W/22A and Spoolmatic 3
Hobart Champion Elite
Everlast PowerTIG 210EXT
Miller Millermatic 350P
Miller Regency 200 W/22A and Spoolmatic 3
Hobart Champion Elite
Everlast PowerTIG 210EXT
My opinion is this:
People are just people, nobody has any divine grace. If someone else can do it, so can you. And, the first time they ever welded, they'd never done it before either...
I've had numerous people sit down at my welder and try aluminum as the first item they ever welded, and within a short span, they were laying a half decent bead. If you're going to practice, you'll get there. There's lots of examples here on the forum of folks who just picked up the hobby and initial welds are perfectly acceptable. That's not to say you'd, as Jody put it in a video, "Want to hang granny out over the grand canyon on that weld"
, but they'll often hold up just fine. Actually, some of my very first ever aluminum welds with a transformer HF Tig 20 years ago, were for a fly-high bar for wakeboarding on my Ski Boat. They held up for years and years of towing a wakeboarder doing flips and all sorts of manuvers, even pulled beginner skiers with it because it's easier to learn with the rope higher. Those welds are fine today, and those parts I think might still be on the shelf here today yet.
Don't be skeert of aluminum!
People are just people, nobody has any divine grace. If someone else can do it, so can you. And, the first time they ever welded, they'd never done it before either...
I've had numerous people sit down at my welder and try aluminum as the first item they ever welded, and within a short span, they were laying a half decent bead. If you're going to practice, you'll get there. There's lots of examples here on the forum of folks who just picked up the hobby and initial welds are perfectly acceptable. That's not to say you'd, as Jody put it in a video, "Want to hang granny out over the grand canyon on that weld"
, but they'll often hold up just fine. Actually, some of my very first ever aluminum welds with a transformer HF Tig 20 years ago, were for a fly-high bar for wakeboarding on my Ski Boat. They held up for years and years of towing a wakeboarder doing flips and all sorts of manuvers, even pulled beginner skiers with it because it's easier to learn with the rope higher. Those welds are fine today, and those parts I think might still be on the shelf here today yet. Don't be skeert of aluminum!
That $100 is pretty reasonable if it took him 4 hours. Most people think welding is a 5 minute job. It is not. What takes all the time is setting up the work, cleaning, prepping, positioning everything. Once you begin to weld you will understand it.
But, to undertake your project, a quality MIG machine capable of running aluminum MIG from a spool is your best bet. A machine with pulse MIG would be even better. Expect to pay close to $2,000 for a decent machine, 240v capable, regulator, equipment and what not. And then lots of money for test pieces, scrap, a grinder, cut-off wheels, etc, helmet, gloves, coat and a tank of 100% Argon. See where the $100 comes from? It is not cheap to be able to weld.
You're right, you can learn and do for yourself. Invest the time, money and energy to learn and practice. Expect it will take you a lot longer than you think it will.
But, to undertake your project, a quality MIG machine capable of running aluminum MIG from a spool is your best bet. A machine with pulse MIG would be even better. Expect to pay close to $2,000 for a decent machine, 240v capable, regulator, equipment and what not. And then lots of money for test pieces, scrap, a grinder, cut-off wheels, etc, helmet, gloves, coat and a tank of 100% Argon. See where the $100 comes from? It is not cheap to be able to weld.
You're right, you can learn and do for yourself. Invest the time, money and energy to learn and practice. Expect it will take you a lot longer than you think it will.
- LtBadd
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I agreeBugHunter wrote:My opinion is this:
People are just people, nobody has any divine grace. If someone else can do it, so can you. And, the first time they ever welded, they'd never done it before either...
My first job I learned to stick and MIG weld, also TIG, and it was aluminum, I had someone there to teach so I wasn't on my own
Richard
Website
Website
I work at a place that builds custom jet boats with all aluminum, we do have a tig machine, but 90% of our welding is done with Miller Alumapower 350s with Alumafeed 350 wire feeders and push pull guns and we get those things hot enough the whole gun gets uncomfortable to hold with heavy gloves so I would definitely suggest a decent 250-300 amp class mig welder with a spool gun as well.
We run 3/64 ER5356 wire typically around 450IPM on the wirespeed and we still run 3 machines on the same boat to get things done in a timely manner, you won't need as much machine as you'll only be building part of the boat, but you'll still be paying a LOT in time if you try to tig weld it all.
We run 3/64 ER5356 wire typically around 450IPM on the wirespeed and we still run 3 machines on the same boat to get things done in a timely manner, you won't need as much machine as you'll only be building part of the boat, but you'll still be paying a LOT in time if you try to tig weld it all.
Thanks for the replies.
Regarding the $100 job, it isn't the time it took that blew me away, but the fact that it was a 3" weld. When I lived up north, I knew a guy who would weld you anything short of a rolling chassis for $10. He did a lot of small aluminum jobs for me.
sbaker65, what company do you work for? I'm actually still shopping around for a hull at this point.
I know I won't get things perfect the first time, but I also know it takes practice, patience, and attention to detail. I am willing to give it a try.
Regarding a TIG/MIG welder, what would you all suggest for a low cost unit that will get the job done? This is why I came here. I'm not looking to spend a ton of money right out the gate. I just want something simple that will get the job done.
Thanks
Regarding the $100 job, it isn't the time it took that blew me away, but the fact that it was a 3" weld. When I lived up north, I knew a guy who would weld you anything short of a rolling chassis for $10. He did a lot of small aluminum jobs for me.
sbaker65, what company do you work for? I'm actually still shopping around for a hull at this point.
I know I won't get things perfect the first time, but I also know it takes practice, patience, and attention to detail. I am willing to give it a try.
Regarding a TIG/MIG welder, what would you all suggest for a low cost unit that will get the job done? This is why I came here. I'm not looking to spend a ton of money right out the gate. I just want something simple that will get the job done.
Thanks
You may want to read similar threads just to set your expectations. If you're not going to use YouTube (or similar videos) or have someone looking over your shoulder with a machine already set up for a test piece it will likely take more than a few tries to get any sort of bead at all. It seems everyone commenting here either had someone helping them, or were already familiar with other types of welding first and that makes a big difference TIG on aluminum is like juggling while riding a unicycle...if you have to learn both at the same time it's going to take a while.sms986 wrote: I know I won't get things perfect the first time, but I also know it takes practice, patience, and attention to detail. I am willing to give it a try.
Regarding a TIG/MIG welder, what would you all suggest for a low cost unit that will get the job done? This is why I came here. I'm not looking to spend a ton of money right out the gate. I just want something simple that will get the job done.
As far as machines go the thickness of the aluminum you expect to be working with will largely drive what will work for you. For example, 1/4" aluminum is about all you'd be able to handle with some of the less expensive 200-225A machines that are popular...the new Harbor Freight ProTIG 205, Primeweld 225, AHP Alpha TIG, etc....all in the ballpark of $800-1,000 give or take a bit.
Miller Syncrowave 250DX TIGRunner
Miller Millermatic 350P
Miller Regency 200 W/22A and Spoolmatic 3
Hobart Champion Elite
Everlast PowerTIG 210EXT
Miller Millermatic 350P
Miller Regency 200 W/22A and Spoolmatic 3
Hobart Champion Elite
Everlast PowerTIG 210EXT
I don't want this to come off the wrong way but, think about it a little; you are looking to handle a fairly Advanced project which will require either an awful lot of skill or a pretty nice machine, or both. Most of the replies you have received, well just look at the Sig lines, they've got a train car full of money involved in welding equipment. I am no Authority on it but I don't know that there is a real budget way to handle a quality aluminum welding project. Not to say there isn't, but for instance I have a Lincoln MIG welder that I bought specifically to keep a spool gun running all the time and run aluminum. It has been parked for years, literally probably hasn't run 5 hours during my ownership because it just doesn't do as nice a job as the other welders I have, both the Mig with a spool gun and the tig. You are asking for a budget recommendation that I don't know exists.sms986 wrote:Regarding a TIG/MIG welder, what would you all suggest for a low cost unit that will get the job done? This is why I came here. I'm not looking to spend a ton of money right out the gate. I just want something simple that will get the job done.
I don't mean to make it sound like it's going to take your life savings to weld something but if your idea is that $1,000 is a lot of money, this is probably a job better hired out. I'm not sure I would want to tackle it with a budget under 2,000 and I'm sure I would overrun in order to be happy with the end result.
And this is coming from the guy who is encouraging you to take a stab at it.
You can buy a fair DC TIG machine for $1000, but to get a good AC welder you should figure on $2500-3000 minimum. It takes a lot more Amps to weld aluminum compared to steel. The aluminum melts at a lower temperature, but it also conducts the heat away from the weld much faster.
I spent $3000 getting a Neverlast (Everlast) 255EXT with cooler. Less than 2 years later the AC side has gone bad, and the 5 year warranty is a lie. Just try to find anybody that got warranty coverage after 6 months.
TIG is a slower process, but it can do welds that have better appearance. I prefer it for most of my welds because of the control it gives me.
Check out the videos by Jody. He does an excellent job of teaching. Good infomation, good camera shots, good explanations, and well worth the time. This is his website, so it is handy too.
I spent $3000 getting a Neverlast (Everlast) 255EXT with cooler. Less than 2 years later the AC side has gone bad, and the 5 year warranty is a lie. Just try to find anybody that got warranty coverage after 6 months.
TIG is a slower process, but it can do welds that have better appearance. I prefer it for most of my welds because of the control it gives me.
Check out the videos by Jody. He does an excellent job of teaching. Good infomation, good camera shots, good explanations, and well worth the time. This is his website, so it is handy too.
No sense dying with unused welding rod, so light 'em up!
start with stick welding steel. best way to learn.sms986 wrote: I don't have time for classes (full time job and a full time engineering grad student), but I have an hour or so every night to practice, and I won't be doing anything on the boat until I am confident. I also don't want to learn from YouTube because it becomes the classic deal where you learn to do something from a video and someone comes along later and said "oh they didn't mention that you have to use this instead of that." So I'm here, to ask specific questions and hopefully get helpful answers.
I'm using 6061 aluminum, and I basically need to learn everything.
good thing is most tig welders are also stick welders.
then you can go to steel tig welding and then aluminium.
all that with one machine.
once you get proficient at that, you will also learn what other gear you will need for your project.
then i would look at mig aluminium setup thats suitable for the project.
you might get by with just a spool gun, but there is pulse and double pulse mig welders available.
tweak it until it breaks
What I'm saying in regards to low price: I can choose a cheap walmart tool chest, a nice craftsman chest, or a snap
on chest. I'm the guy with the craftsman. Good quality, far better than the Walmart chest that will have mangled to a pile of scrap in my garage by the end of the year, but thousands less than the nice shiny snapon chest, all while working just the same.
I am not opposed to spending a bunch of money on this endeavor, but I work hard for my money (not all engineers are know it all pencil pushers haha) so I want my money to work hard for me. On my fiberglass boat project, everyone told me to use PE resin, but I went with epoxy because the benefits far outweighed the steep price. I'm not afraid to spend big. I just want to spend sensibly and get only what I need, not what I want.
Again, thanks for all the help.
I also don't have any expectations as to how long it will take me or if I will even get it to work at all. I just figured now is the time to commit and try.
on chest. I'm the guy with the craftsman. Good quality, far better than the Walmart chest that will have mangled to a pile of scrap in my garage by the end of the year, but thousands less than the nice shiny snapon chest, all while working just the same.
I am not opposed to spending a bunch of money on this endeavor, but I work hard for my money (not all engineers are know it all pencil pushers haha) so I want my money to work hard for me. On my fiberglass boat project, everyone told me to use PE resin, but I went with epoxy because the benefits far outweighed the steep price. I'm not afraid to spend big. I just want to spend sensibly and get only what I need, not what I want.
Again, thanks for all the help.
I also don't have any expectations as to how long it will take me or if I will even get it to work at all. I just figured now is the time to commit and try.
sms986 wrote:Can I use a mig with 120v to weld this stuff? I would like to just plug it into the wall at my house and go to town. Also, will a DC welder do ok?
A 120 volt mig would not be a good choice for your needs. Those little things just don't have enough power. In your case, I would recommend that you buy a Miller Dynasty DX. They are pricey, But, they have all the bells and whistles that you will appreciate when you learn to weld. If you can afford to build boats-you can afford to buy equipment that you won't have to
replace later when you out grow it.
no.sms986 wrote:Can I use a mig with 120v to weld this stuff? I would like to just plug it into the wall at my house and go to town. Also, will a DC welder do ok?
way to small. aluminium wants lots of amps. 200ish amp machine minimum (i have 180 amp and i push that to the max at times) lack of amps will limit what thickness material you can weld.
aluminum requires AC tig. i recommend tig for aluminium especially starting off. this will give you plenty of practise doing the small stuff. that way you get some idea of what you need for larger projects before spending the money on a mig.
i don't recommend the high end brands. far to expensive and you typically will not see the benefit. leave them for the guys that weld all day every day. you can get really good machines for half the price.
the only other thing is look at some of the true do everything multi welders. ie its a mig and ac/dc tig in one. i think everlast as a couple of models.
tweak it until it breaks
So how would I go about hooking up (electrically) a 240V machine in my house?
I looked at miller welders but they are pretty pricey. Thats about 25% of the cost of the boat. If I do well and really like it, later on I may buy something nice like a miller, but for now I want to keep it simple.
I looked at miller welders but they are pretty pricey. Thats about 25% of the cost of the boat. If I do well and really like it, later on I may buy something nice like a miller, but for now I want to keep it simple.
For aluminum you're pretty much limited to two main paths. One is a MIG welder with either a spool gun or push/pull gun and a tank of 100% argon. If you also want to weld steel with it you'll need a different tank/gas or use flux core wire. It will have to be a 240V machine as the 120V machines won't have enough power to do what you're talking about (some will use both, but output power is based upon input power). As a baseline, something with the ballpark capabilities of a Miller Millermatic 211 would be the low end of what you'd need when it comes to power. You can hook a spool gun up to it (not all smaller welders can use them) and it would let you weld aluminum in theory up to 3/8" but that's probably pushing it a bit (every manufacturer seems to be optimistic). They consider the 211 a 200 amp machine, but it only has a 20% duty cycle at that output (weld for two minutes out of ten minutes). Pretty much every manufacturer offers something similar and you can spend days comparing specs, but that will give you a fairly reasonable minimum capability range to work off.sms986 wrote:Maybe we can try it this way.
Just list out the specs on what I would need in a welder and I'll pick out a few and post them up on here.
The other choice is a TIG machine that has AC output (it will have DC as well) and a tank of 100% argon. From a practical standpoint you're going to want a machine that has at least 200 amps of output and that will mean a 240V machine as well (or 120/240 machine running on 240V input). 1/4" aluminum will pretty much max out a 200A machine for single pass welding unless you add helium to your argon....either a mixed tank or two tanks with regulators and a Y fitting, but helium is expensive and the added cost could just be used to buy a welder with more power. There are quite a few popular, fairly inexpensive machines that fit the bill. The Primeweld TIG 225 gets rave reviews and only runs $800. Harbor Freight's new ProTIG 205 is getting good reviews, runs around $1K, but I have seen reports of some of them dying or being dead out of the box. Still, you can use those as performance baselines and see what other companies offer along those lines. Aluminum takes a lot of power and something with 250A or more would be even better, but the cost will jump pretty quickly.
Miller Syncrowave 250DX TIGRunner
Miller Millermatic 350P
Miller Regency 200 W/22A and Spoolmatic 3
Hobart Champion Elite
Everlast PowerTIG 210EXT
Miller Millermatic 350P
Miller Regency 200 W/22A and Spoolmatic 3
Hobart Champion Elite
Everlast PowerTIG 210EXT
100% opinion and conjecture here.... Be forewarned:sms986 wrote:So how would I go about hooking up (electrically) a 240V machine in my house?
I looked at miller welders but they are pretty pricey. Thats about 25% of the cost of the boat. If I do well and really like it, later on I may buy something nice like a miller, but for now I want to keep it simple.
I don't like the idea of MIG for an aluminum job which will fatigue. Boats put incredible stress on every part, and IN MY EXPERIENCE; Aluminum mig welds are prone to metal fatigue failure. If I had a $ for every person I know with an aluminum trailer that has broken welds...
All mig, and all with pitiful penetration and generally welded only on one side. An almost certain recipe for failure. Again Imho... I'm sure there are guys out there who can really do nice strong aluminum welds with a mig and a spool gun. I've just never come across one.
:leaving:
Fair and honest post.BugHunter wrote: 100% opinion and conjecture here.... Be forewarned:
I don't like the idea of MIG for an aluminum job which will fatigue. Boats put incredible stress on every part, and IN MY EXPERIENCE; Aluminum mig welds are prone to metal fatigue failure. If I had a $ for every person I know with an aluminum trailer that has broken welds...
I'm sure there are guys out there who can really do nice strong aluminum welds with a mig and a spool gun. I've just never come across one.
:leaving:
However, you should know that ALL Superyachts on planet earth that have aluminum superstructures, and those with aluminum hulls (a growing trend) are MIG welded almost entirely. Not every single part/piece, but likely more than 95%.
You're dead right; it comes down to experience and WPS. But really that's true of MIG as a process and not related to ally more than steel. Ally TIG is equally susceptible to stress cracks and lack of penetration because more than a few of us don't have the amperage, training, or test procedures to insure "full penetration" welds.
A bit of technique, a few tricks, and I am pretty confident that the OP could MIG up his ally boat with greater success than TIG weld it. Certainly no worse. And let's be honest, we likely aren't talking about an ocean-going boat here running 70 Knots through 6' rollers (at least I hope to H3ll we aren't)
Side note! Any welding process is probably capable of doing the job. Comes down to:experience divided by equipment. Minus ego. Multiplied my customer experiences. / history/ reputation.
I have more questions than answers
Josh
Josh
How would you suggest they be welded then? I'm just curious, because TIG would at minimum triple the labor cost to say nothing of the higher skill level required. That being said we almost always weld things on both sides and we run hot enough that on most thicknesses we are only a hair away from full penetration and often do get penetration through to the backside that we need to clean up before welding.BugHunter wrote:100% opinion and conjecture here.... Be forewarned:sms986 wrote:So how would I go about hooking up (electrically) a 240V machine in my house?
I looked at miller welders but they are pretty pricey. Thats about 25% of the cost of the boat. If I do well and really like it, later on I may buy something nice like a miller, but for now I want to keep it simple.
I don't like the idea of MIG for an aluminum job which will fatigue. Boats put incredible stress on every part, and IN MY EXPERIENCE; Aluminum mig welds are prone to metal fatigue failure. If I had a $ for every person I know with an aluminum trailer that has broken welds...
I'm sure there are guys out there who can really do nice strong aluminum welds with a mig and a spool gun. I've just never come across one.
:leaving:
If I wanted to, and had the projects/work, I could MIG aluminum all day long without a spoolgun nor a push-pull gun. Just saying.G-ManBart wrote:sms986 wrote: For aluminum you're pretty much limited to two main paths. One is a MIG welder with either a spool gun or push/pull gun .