Welding Tips and Tricks

Hi,
I have finished building my welding area in the basement and my son and I are comfortable with the MIG welder, so I'm going to buy a TIG machine for us. I thought I'd get it for him as a graduation gift, but we're going with something else to match his sister's graduation gift. The machine will be for us to learn and practice on, and for DIY stuff around the house. Carts, a sculpting stand, and a few other projects. Also any projects my son wants to use it on for school (entering as an aerospace engineering major), but I suspect he'll have access to some pretty fancy stuff at school.

I have narrowed my search down to the Primeweld and the HTP Invertig.

If I get the Invertig, I'll get the dual voltage water cooled with a 25' torch. That's around $3750.

I can get the Primeweld, an HTP 110V cooler, a CK200 25' SF torch, for $1500. That would give me an air cooled torch and a water cooled torch option if we wanted to take the welder someplace without lugging the cooler along too.

It seems like both machines are well liked, so I'm trying to figure out what the benefit of the HTP is. Also, I just found a used Miller Dynasty 210DX with 56 hours on it and 1 year left on the warranty that I could get for about the same price as the HTP. It comes with the Miller cooler. It is a 2 hour drive, but is that also worth considering?

I know any of those set ups would be more than sufficient to learn on and to weld mild steel, aluminum, and occasionally stainless, but I generally overbuy quality in tools, and am lucky enough to be in a position where I the cost is only a factor because I try not to waste money. Got the conservative ideal from my dad, although it didn't stop me from buying a CamMaster CNC to play with, so it won't stop me from overbuying quality in a welder.

What do you guys see as the pros and cons of those 3 options?

I’d get the Dynasty.

I too would opt for the Dynasty. I don't know if the HTP can, but I do know the Dynasty does, allow for field upgrade to the software via a MicroSD card. The Dynasty has a feature pack (another $500) to provide fully independent AC (different waveform for + vs - and amperage on either side). The HTP does allow different amperage either side, but not the variety of waveforms (at least that is my understanding).

Also, warranty centers are locally available versus shipping back to HTP. Small consideration. Plus the 210DX can be run on 110v, 240v or 3ph all by switching the plug end. That is a very nice feature in my experience (I have an older 200DX).

Other than that, the HTP is a very good choice. Very good. Slight nod to the Miller.

cj737 wrote:I too would opt for the Dynasty. I don't know if the HTP can, but I do know the Dynasty does, allow for field upgrade to the software via a MicroSD card. The Dynasty has a feature pack (another $500) to provide fully independent AC (different waveform for + vs - and amperage on either side). The HTP does allow different amperage either side, but not the variety of waveforms (at least that is my understanding).

Also, warranty centers are locally available versus shipping back to HTP. Small consideration. Plus the 210DX can be run on 110v, 240v or 3ph all by switching the plug end. That is a very nice feature in my experience (I have an older 200DX).

Other than that, the HTP is a very good choice. Very good. Slight nod to the Miller.

Yup, the HTP only offers the Independent Amplitude as standard built-in, not needed a $500 upgrade. You don't always have to ship back to HTP. They will work with you to troubleshoot and even replace boards if you are tech saavy enough. So the whole "requiring shipping" is not entirely 100% accurate based on what HTP has told me.

Also not every city that has Miller sales/dealers have service centers. My city has a few Miller authorized dealers, but none of them are service centers. When I had to have my Millermatic 211 serviced, I had to drive 2 hours to San Antonio for the nearest authorized service center. So the 'locally available service centers' is not always true because it depends on where you live. Some dealers will not ship your Miller to a service center if you did not buy it from them, as they simply don't have to.

That being said, the 210dx at the price mentioned can not be beat.

I bought the Primeweld simply because it was the best budget machine that seemed to have good support. I've no regrets about buying it, but I started out wanting the HTP and I'd still buy one if the funds allowed.

OK. If everything is as described and I get it, will post pics.
Thanks
Todd

But if you do get the HTP Invertig 221, I would send you an invitation to my HTP Welder Group Chat on WhatsApp. It is exclusive access to owners of HTP machines. That's one thing you don't get with the Miller 210dx.

If the Miller deal doesn't go through, I'll look forward to joining your HTP group. I watched a comparison of the two on YouTube, and the guy who had both said the Miller was easier to use because of it's interface, but the HTP had a "softer" arc that was nicer. He also said the welds came out the same with both. Seems the guy selling it just got a Dynasty 400.

JustTheDad wrote:If the Miller deal doesn't go through, I'll look forward to joining your HTP group. I watched a comparison of the two on YouTube, and the guy who had both said the Miller was easier to use because of it's interface, but the HTP had a "softer" arc that was nicer. He also said the welds came out the same with both. Seems the guy selling it just got a Dynasty 400.

That “softer arc” comment gets thrown around a lot. Quite often you discover that the Owner never went through the setup menu for initial arc amperage, preflow, etc. One very nice thing about the modern inverters is the software to adjust and tune the parameters for a great many features.

Waveforms are especially advantageous if you get serious about different thicknesses. There’s a terrific thread somewhere buried on this forum from Mike Zancanato regarding his adaptations on waveform, amperage and the effects of independent amplitude. It’s worth the read for information and entertainment at least.

cj737 wrote:

JustTheDad wrote:If the Miller deal doesn't go through, I'll look forward to joining your HTP group. I watched a comparison of the two on YouTube, and the guy who had both said the Miller was easier to use because of it's interface, but the HTP had a "softer" arc that was nicer. He also said the welds came out the same with both. Seems the guy selling it just got a Dynasty 400.

That “softer arc” comment gets thrown around a lot. Quite often you discover that the Owner never went through the setup menu for initial arc amperage, preflow, etc. One very nice thing about the modern inverters is the software to adjust and tune the parameters for a great many features.

Waveforms are especially advantageous if you get serious about different thicknesses. There’s a terrific thread somewhere buried on this forum from Mike Zancanato regarding his adaptations on waveform, amperage and the effects of independent amplitude. It’s worth the read for information and entertainment at least.

I'd be interested in reading that. So far, I have tried variations on waveforms and found zero practical use for my purposes. Even the guys at Miller have pretty much admitted that unless you have some super-specific need, it's just not necessary.

If it does make any difference, it's not noticeable during casual use. Decrease in heat is about the only noticeable thing and that's pretty elementary when you think about it. No different than pulse requiring more power.

BugHunter wrote:I'd be interested in reading that.

How about this:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6391

Oscar wrote:If I ever buy another TIG, it will either be a 280DX, or a 350DX.  Or a Stel (HTP) if they ever decide to give either one of those Miller's a run for their money.  It would likely be $1500 cheaper.  I can only dream

Old post of mine. I'd say I called it pretty well!. Who'd have thought!

If you get the HTP cooler (which I highly recommend, and just bought my second unit), consider getting the 220v model instead of the 110v. Even if the welder you decide on doesn't have a built-in cooler power output (the Primeweld doesn't, if I'm not mistaken) you can still daisy chain the cooler to your welder power supply with a little ingenuity, and avoid having to run a separate cord to supply the 110v. Of course, this is assuming you plan to weld on 220v and not 110v, which I imagine is this case.

Just something to consider.

Oscar wrote:But if you do get the HTP Invertig 221, I would send you an invitation to my HTP Welder Group Chat on WhatsApp. It is exclusive access to owners of HTP machines. That's one thing you don't get with the Miller 210dx.

Does it count if I run HTP coolers?? Do I get to join the party, or is it ONLY HTP welders.

Spartan wrote:

Oscar wrote:But if you do get the HTP Invertig 221, I would send you an invitation to my HTP Welder Group Chat on WhatsApp. It is exclusive access to owners of HTP machines. That's one thing you don't get with the Miller 210dx.

Does it count if I run HTP coolers?? Do I get to join the party, or is it ONLY HTP welders.

Hmmm...good question. You say you have two HTP coolers, eh? How many HTP welders do you see in your near future say in the next year or two?

Oscar wrote:

Spartan wrote:

Oscar wrote:But if you do get the HTP Invertig 221, I would send you an invitation to my HTP Welder Group Chat on WhatsApp. It is exclusive access to owners of HTP machines. That's one thing you don't get with the Miller 210dx.

Does it count if I run HTP coolers?? Do I get to join the party, or is it ONLY HTP welders.

Hmmm...good question. You say you have two HTP coolers, eh? How many HTP welders do you see in your near future say in the next year or two?

I plan to buy two more welders in the next 2-3 months. Strongly considering the HTP Invertig 221, but to be honest, I will probably get Everlast 255EXTs.

Spartan wrote:
I plan to buy two more welders in the next 2-3 months. Strongly considering the HTP Invertig 221, but to be honest, I will probably get Everlast 255EXTs.

I'm curious, why do you not have Everlast coolers, since they offer them as well?

cj737 wrote: That “softer arc” comment gets thrown around a lot. Quite often you discover that the Owner never went through the setup menu for initial arc amperage, preflow, etc. One very nice thing about the modern inverters is the software to adjust and tune the parameters for a great many features.

Waveforms are especially advantageous if you get serious about different thicknesses. There’s a terrific thread somewhere buried on this forum from Mike Zancanato regarding his adaptations on waveform, amperage and the effects of independent amplitude. It’s worth the read for information and entertainment at least.

CJ737- I read Zank's thread. The Miller Dynasty 210 won't have that functionality added unless I pay another $500 for it, and I don't think I will right now. Would you still recommend the Miller over the HTP, which comes with that feature already?

Spartan-It looks like everyone thought the HTP or Miller were worth the up charge, although to be fair, nobody has said why As to the circuit, I guess I could add a second 220 outlet if I got a second cooler. I did wire it so adding it on the same breaker would be relatively easy. I'd just wire a second outlet under the receptacle. I say relatively, because that 6 gauge wire is never really easy for me to work with.

Oscar wrote:

Spartan wrote:
I plan to buy two more welders in the next 2-3 months. Strongly considering the HTP Invertig 221, but to be honest, I will probably get Everlast 255EXTs.

I'm curious, why do you not have Everlast coolers, since they offer them as well?

They're the same price, and I believe they are basically the same exact cooler made in the same factory. However, I really like the flow alarm that HTP has added which the Everlast does not have, and I also prefer them without the QD fittings that Everlast forces upon you for a lot of things including their coolers.

Spartan wrote:They're the same price, and I believe they are basically the same exact cooler made in the same factory. However, I really like the flow alarm that HTP has added which the Everlast does not have, and I also prefer them without the QD fittings that Everlast forces upon you for a lot of things including their coolers.

Hate to disagree, but you should verify that with HTP America, seems their coolers are made in Italy and the Everlast coolers are made in China.

Todd, you should buy what you feel comfortable buying. Don't rely on other people to entirely decide what you buy. At some point your son is going to learn how to use the welder and glue metal together. IMO, Miller is the gold standard and in your case money is not the issue. You should just go buy him a new machine with the module as well.

TraditionalToolworks wrote:

Spartan wrote:They're the same price, and I believe they are basically the same exact cooler made in the same factory. However, I really like the flow alarm that HTP has added which the Everlast does not have, and I also prefer them without the QD fittings that Everlast forces upon you for a lot of things including their coolers.

Hate to disagree, but you should verify that with HTP America, seems their coolers are made in Italy and the Everlast coolers are made in China.

That certainly could be the case. But I did look inside an Everlast cooler not long ago, and they are identical as identical can get...so who knows.

Either way, part of going with the HTP cooler was indeed the presumption that it may in fact be better quality. So HTP coolers it is, at least for now.

JustTheDad wrote:

cj737 wrote: CJ737- I read Zank's thread. The Miller Dynasty 210 won't have that functionality added unless I pay another $500 for it, and I don't think I will right now. Would you still recommend the Miller over the HTP, which comes with that feature already?

Full disclosure, I am a tad biased because I own several Miller products. So I have a very local Service Center with whom I have had great luck, another LWS where I get gas at a great price, and I've never had the need to not buy a Miller. The HTP is certainly a strong consideration, and there's a technical difference in independent amplitude and Miller's Independent AC (insofar as you can also change waveforms on either side of the wave). Maybe not needed, but as you said upfront, you'd rather buy once, cry once. Plus my gear swaps between Dynasty machines, MaxStars and such so there is some convenience for me. I do a bit of part time work for a Buddy when his crew is short, and its a Miller-full crowd of guys.

You can always add the SW pack at anytime later, plus it moves from machine to machine. I have used that feature when welding 1/4" ally to 1/8" ally using my Buddy's 280DX. I can say honestly, it did make a difference and it was noticeable. Your mileage will vary.

Moral of the story: you can't go wrong with either (Miller of HTP).

TraditionalToolworks wrote:

BugHunter wrote:I'd be interested in reading that.

How about this:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6391

Very cool. That's worth trying. That's the first time I've seen anyone mention variations on waveshapes having a noticeable effect, and That's something I've never tried on AC (and my machine does have that capability). Looks like I've got another thing to experiment with. This should be fun!

His amps were quite a bit higher than I can run though. I've only got a 210DX, so that's going to limit my amperage. Then again, for work purposes, I generally weld aluminum that varies in thickness from about .090" to .160", with maybe some corners that are a slightly heavier cross-sectional thickness.

That's one of the tricky items for me is I weld aluminum extrusion that's got 4 thickness changes in a 1" span, and if you flip and do the other side, there's 5 changes on the 1" other side.

cj737 wrote:I can say honestly, it did make a difference and it was noticeable. Your mileage will vary.
Moral of the story: you can't go wrong with either (Miller of HTP).

CJ737, For a beginner who just likes to make things and will be working mostly with mild steel or stainless, I doubt those features will make a huge difference to me, but as you said, I'm of the buy once, cry once mentality.

Alan, I know you were joking about getting a new one, but I really do try to be conservative with money when there isn't any benefit to spending more. Like when I buy myself a car, I don't splurge. My weakness is when it involves my kids or my wife. When my daughter got her driving permit in 2016, I had a 2004 Chevy Trailblazer. So I found a loaded 2015/2016 Volvo XC60 with 4k miles on it at a dealer and got her that. You had to get the Platinum package back then to get the automatic braking. I kept driving the Chevy. A year later I got my son essentially the same car in a different color, also a dealer demo. Our friends thought I should get the nice car, but I couldn't see the benefits of spending more on a car for me. But to bubble wrap my kids as much as possible, no problem. They still drive those cars and I've upgraded to my wife's hand me down 2014 Dodge Citadel.

I'd be fine with the PrimeWeld! It looks like a really nice machine. My problem is that this is a purchase driven largely by my son wanting to learn a very useful skill, and I did say my kids are a weakness. Even though he probably wouldn't care which I bought right now, someday he might, so I'm willing to spend for the HTP or used Miller. You guys almost all seemed to think those offer some benefits over the Primeweld, and almost everyone here recommend the used Miller over the HTP. I was kind of surprised by that given they are pretty close.

The benefits of the HTP seem to be:
It would be brand new.
It would have the CK20 25' torch (no idea if the one that comes with the miller is as good)
It has slightly more capability to tune the AC arc at baseline.

Based on this thread (and my own research) the benefits of the Miller seem to be:
The interface is much easier to use.
It get's software updates periodically
It can be upgraded to have the same AC tuning ability as the HTP, possibly even a bit more
It's the welder that the guys teaching my son and I to weld use
In 3 or 4 years, the Miller will likely retain more of it's value.

I was ambivalent between the two but you guys tipped me slightly towards the Miller. I offered the seller, who seems like a nice guy, a little less than ask, and he accepted, so I'll pick it up Monday when he's back in town. That's if there aren't any blips or issues. Of course, someone could offer the full amount this weekend and he might just accept that rather than give me the option to match it, so we'll see. I won't be disappointed if we wind up with the HTP.

Thanks again

BugHunter wrote: That's one of the tricky items for me is I weld aluminum extrusion that's got 4 thickness changes in a 1" span, and if you flip and do the other side, there's 5 changes on the 1" other side.

I can't even picture that