[Oscar]

Hi Everyone,

4. I'm using 1/16" mild steel filler for 1/8" scrap plate of coupon plate.

Something like that should not be on your list of problems. Easily fixed...you know how.

I don't even think there's anything to fix there. 1/16" filler rod is perfectly fine for 1/8" base material. Unless I'm missing something else...

[Spartan]

Hi Everyone,

4. I'm using 1/16" mild steel filler for 1/8" scrap plate of coupon plate.

Something like that should not be on your list of problems. Easily fixed...you know how.

I don't even think there's anything to fix there. 1/16" filler rod is perfectly fine for 1/8" base material. Unless I'm missing something else...

Agreed...for an experienced TIG welder that already knows how to meter the rod quite well. But for a beginner, it's not ideal, IMO. 3/32" will make a much easier dabbing experience on that base metal so they can focus their attention on mastering the basics.

[Jeff2016]

Hi Spartan,

Agreed...for an experienced TIG welder that already knows how to meter the rod quite well. But for a beginner, it's not ideal, IMO. 3/32" will make a much easier dabbing experience on that base metal so they can focus their attention on mastering the basics.

Thanks for your input. I understand what you are saying about the 3/32" rod. I did start out using 3/32". I was having trouble dabbing the rod (sticking to puddle, or base metal too far ahead of the puddle). When that happened I would slow down and put more heat into the part. Most of what I read in forums or watched in YouTube videos recommended 1/16" filler. I know it makes it harder to feed; but, I think it's worth the effort. I'm already using longer stick-out, so I figure I'll bite the bullet and address the rod issue sooner rather than later.

I know that there was also talk about using larger, thicker scrap for testing. Because I want scrap / base metal that I can lay out lots of beads on (after proper cooling) I found I was spending more time pickling and/or cleaning the scrap than I was on welding. One vendor sells coupons of various sizes and thicknesses that are mill scale free. It's an expensive way to learn; but, with an acetone wipe and the coupons are good to go. The 1/8" coupons are all that they had in stock at the times that I looked. (I've been waiting on 1/4"; but, I've never seen it in stock.) The 1/8" may actually be better in some ways to keep a little less heat from being generated. The vendor recently had 2" x 8" x 1/8" in stock, so that's what I was using yesterday evening. Not as good as larger scrap; but, the cleanliness factor is a plus.

It really didn't come through in my message last night... The hardest things for me at the moment are keeping the tungsten at the right distance above the work piece, torch angled correctly, being in a proper position (and close enough) with my head to see the puddle clearly... and not touching the filler to the tungsten (or dipping the tungsten into the puddle). I guess I've just described TIG welding. lol And, the heat zone is an issue, too, knowing that I am putting too much heat into the base metal... I'll need to work on that, too.

Thanks for your input.

Jeff

[Jeff2016]

Hi Oscar,

Thanks for the follow-up. There is no secret that will allow you to magically skip years of much needed practice. *hint, hint*. Just keep practicing, and refer back often to Jody's TIG welding videos so you don't lose sight of what is important.

I appreciate all of your comments and suggestions.

I can't imagine trying to learn something like this without YouTube. Guys like Jody sure make it easy to understand the basics and how relaxed you can be when doing something so challenging.

I want to take my time with this, and learn from guys on this forum. It would be pretty easy to try to rush the process and get frustrated (more frustrated that is, lol)... and even worse, not enjoy the experience. If I'm still asking newbie questions at the end of the year you guys may need to shut me down.

Jeff

[DavidR8]

Hi Oscar,

Thanks for the follow-up. There is no secret that will allow you to magically skip years of much needed practice. *hint, hint*. Just keep practicing, and refer back often to Jody's TIG welding videos so you don't lose sight of what is important.

I appreciate all of your comments and suggestions.

I can't imagine trying to learn something like this without YouTube. Guys like Jody sure make it easy to understand the basics and how relaxed you can be when doing something so challenging.

I want to take my time with this, and learn from guys on this forum. It would be pretty easy to try to rush the process and get frustrated (more frustrated that is, lol)... and even worse, not enjoy the experience. If I'm still asking newbie questions at the end of the year you guys may need to shut me down.

Jeff

This is a great thread Jeff. As a fellow newbie I’m learning a lot from it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jeff2016]

Hey Guys,

Just checking in to say Hi.

Still pretty much a stage 1 beginner. Had to take about 4 months off from welding. Kind of like starting over again.

Spent about 3 hours yesterday doing nothing but prepping and welding. It felt good to get some time running beads. Nothing pretty yet (far from it); but, no major equipment or work piece problems. Just need more time.

Thanks for all of the advice when I got started.

Hope you're all doing well.

Jeff

[Jeff2016]

Hi Everyone,

More follow-up. My station time burning metal hasn't been the most consistent. I made commitment two weeks ago to really make some torch time happen. It's making me feel a lot more comfortable at the table.

I still go from moments when I feel like I suck at welding and won't ever improve to moments when the heat zone is almost acceptable, the filler metal is dabbed in nicely to produce a decent stack of dimes look. I'm still not as consistent as I would like to be.

A couple of quick questions that might help me further:

1. When watching the puddle, how much of that time is typically spent looking at the leading edge of the puddle, and how much is spent look past the electrode to get a picture of how wide the weld bead is, and how close together the dime stacks are to one another? For quite a while it seemed like I spent most of my time focused on the tungsten electrode and the filler wire.... trying to keep from dipping the rod into the electrode. It still happens occasionally; but, it's a lot less frequent now. Also from this vision exercise I am trying to keep the affected heat zone in check.

2. I have watched several decent TIG welders, and each has some different mechanics. Jody has very smooth torch movement (no stopping and starting during a bead run). Another welder whose videos I watch seems to mainly stop the torch right before adding the filler and then moving again once the filler has been tapped into the tunnel. Is one right and one wrong or is it just a matter of preference?

My biggest challenges now are minimizing the heat affected zone, keeping the bead width uniform and keeping the stacked dime look consistent.

The biggest help has been the welding table I bought, a decent stool, good lighting, and having the time to take getting comfortable with holding the torch, feeding the filler rod and working the pedal. Figuring out where the hose should be draped helped some. And, getting it through my head that my hands and arms weren't intented to be used for resting on the table. Basically... just getting comfortable with all of the stuff, and not getting put off my game when the filler rod slipped, or one of a dozen other things that can go wrong and being able to correct them made it a lot less stressful.

Any advice on the what to really be looking for at the puddle would be appreciated, as would advice regarding stopping and starting the torch movement or keeping it moving at all times, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Jef

[Gdarc21]

Hi Jeff,
I think it is important not to stress too much about smaller things. Body position welding rythym etc is very experience based and your obviously picking it up.
Once you get the torch angle, distance to work thing sorted everything else is sorta practice.
One thing that I will mention from my personal experience in both tig and stick verti ups is that when you find the sweetspot for your amps its all handspeed from there. A bit like torch dancing(cha cha cha)
if you smoothly move along or pause when adding filler its upto you. But you should aim to chillax and watch the leading edge. I never watch what Ive left, I only watch what Im leaving at that second im leaving it, you cant change the tail dont stress it you just throw your rythym out.
If you stay with the weld puddle only it will be better.
Years and years ago I used to get tense and try to control everything perfectly, its unsustainable, you have to prep as good as you can and just get into it relax and count yourself in to the bead or something and just enjoy yourself doing it. You will surprise yourself how quickly its starts feeling natural and you identify single things to isolate and work on. Like starts and taper off etc.

[Jeff2016]

Hi Gdarc21,

I appreciate all of your comments.

The most frustrating thing to me is how hard it is to be consistent with the bead and the heat zone.

I agree with you that being relaxed and getting to a point where I am not fighting it produces much better results than when I start over-thinking things.

I have been working mainly on 1/8" mild steel plates. Using a 3/32" tungsten and a no. 8 cup with about 1/2 of stick-out. I have experimented between 80 and 120 amps. Sometimes the results with the higher amperage and faster travel results in a better bead and smaller heat-affected zone, and sometimes it's better at the lower end.

I keep thinking that a light will go in my head when things are coming together; but, so far that hasn't happened.

Every once in while I will practice a little on 1/16".

I'm just not sure what is best in terms of getting comfortable and more consistent. A couple of the questions I keep coming back to:

1. Should I focus more on the puddle or on the heat-affected zone? I know the heat-affected zone probably has more to do with my travel speed than anything else.

2. Should I stick with one amp setting (either a lower or higher) and quit experimenting until I get more consistent? If so, is better to start high or low?

3. Should I move to the 1/16" for practice knowing it will be more difficult?

I know things are improving (not dipping the tungsten nearly as often, more comfortable holding the torch and more comfortable holding the filler rod), so I'm not totally discouraged. Just trying to figure out how I can optimize the time I spend practicing.

Thanks again for your opinion.

Jeff

[cj737]

Jeff - if I may offer some thoughts…

1. Stop worrying that your practice beads on flat pieces aren’t perfect. “Perfect” comes in about 20 years, having welded everyday for 8 hours a day. Short of that achievement, you’ll only ever be a weldor that “doesn’t suck”. And that’s is perfectly okay. Perfect welds exist on Instagram, not many places else.

2. Reduce your stick out. Make the tungsten about one filler wire diameter beyond the end of the cup. It is perfectly acceptable to lay your arms flat on your table and hold your wrist “still”. Then simply “hop” your forearm along (a measured movement is your goal, small steps as a result). This will help you to avoid dipping, increasing your arc length, and changing the HAZ constantly. Find a comfy setup and stick with it.

3. Start welding flat pieces together. Butt welds, T joints, lap joints. This will help you understand how, where, and what to focus on. (Hint: the leading edge of the puddle). Worrying about the weld behind the cup while you’re welding is pointless. That is already burned in, keep going because it is only practice. Assess after the fact. Try to determine when you felt things go wrong and correct that.

You can always stop mid-weld. Reposition, and start again. It’s TIG so it’s much easier to resume, and in fact learning how to do this is also important.

4. Go to a metal scrap yard and buy a large plate of steel. 1/4”, 1/2” it doesn’t matter. Cut that down into 2-4” wide strips and you’ve got all the material you’ll need to practice on. I picked up a huge lot of 3/8 and 1/2 plate from a job that was literally being thrown out. They were stiffeners that had been welded on, then OXY cut off. Sure, they weren’t perfect, but I trimmed them down and have used them (24 pieces of 30x42 plate) for tons of stuff. Elbow grease and some electricity with a plasma torch is what it cost me.My youngest son is using it to learn to Stick. And at 1/2” thick, he lays lots of beads before it ever gets too hot.

5. Moral of the story- stop worrying and just weld. Suddenly everything will click and you’ll be off to the races.

[Gdarc21]

1. Should I focus more on the puddle or on the heat-affected zone? I know the heat-affected zone probably has more to do with my travel speed than anything else.

2. Should I stick with one amp setting (either a lower or higher) and quit experimenting until I get more consistent? If so, is better to start high or low?

3. Should I move to the 1/16" for practice knowing it will be more difficult?




In reply to those Jeff.
1) Always focus on the puddle, any improvements are made there.

2) expirement but keep notes, change one setting at a time if possible it makes diagnostics easier. I found just the other day that I couldnt get my heat settings and haz zone working perfectly. When I went lower on amps I got distortion more than I wanted, when I went to 120 amps I had to move pretty quick, 25nb pipe though, out of positional.
there are suppossed 'rules' but they are guidelines if you break one and it works.
In the end I just grabbed a thicker filler stick and kept going it slowed it down just enough at 125amp to make it workable. Just an example.
The notes give you a good start point when you come back to it.

3) 1/16 shouldnt be any more harder, it will require you to tune your heat down and such and start from scratch with your notes, but will be more economical in steel prices and great practise. Like I said above if your close and just need to change something no matter how unconventional, try it, make notes.

The only rules are negetive terminals, dont forget to turn gas on, clean everthing, fit up as good as possible, smile lots.

Practise practise practise.
Good luck mate.

[Jeff2016]

Gdarc21,

Thanks for your input. Everything made sense.

The smile a lot probably relates a good deal to being relaxed and comfortable. For some reason the last few days, that has been my biggest struggle. I need to find that zone again.

I appreciate all you said.

Jeff

[BillE.Dee]

Hi Jeff. I've been following this thread A LOT. Just wondering IF you are suffering from light sneaking inside your shield from behind . But anyway, as stated by others, it will take time to get accustomed to the learning curve of TIG welding. Keep practicing on just running beads, then add filler. When you start getting nervous, go back to beads. Leave some space between the beads so when you add filler you can compare. Have fun.

[Jeff2016]

Hi BillE.Dee,

I appreciate the advice.

It's good that every once in while things appear to be on track... I just want to make sure I'm not doing things that reinforce bad habits.

Back to the torch! lol

Happy Halloween!

Jeff

[sbaker56]

On 1/8 plate, I'd personally advocate for a 1/16 rod over a 3/32 rod unless stability/shaking is an issue and a stiffer 3/32 rod is easier to control. Other's have given you good advice, keep the stickout long enough to see your puddle clearly, while gas lenses can be a bandaid that can disguise not keeping a tight enough arc for beginners, the extra stick out can also make it a lot easier to actually see your puddle, most beginners if they don't run excessive stickout will almost always do the opposite and run hardly any stick out at all making it nearly impossible to see the puddle. Shoot for a stickout roughly identical to the inside diameter of your cup as a rule of thumb.

To be quite honest though, I REALLY dislike learning to tig weld on 1/8 steel plate, you're limited by both your machine and possibly by available materials, but like stickout beginners tend to fall on the far extremes of either traveling way too fast and cold or way too slow starting off, and will often switch to the other extreme when corrected. One of the most important core practices to learn early on is not to weld over millscale or oxidation and 1/8 steel overheats so damn easily that it's so easy to cook the plate with a single pass necessitating cooling in water then grinding, sandblasting or at least power wire wheeling after every single pass to consistently stack beads. The problem only gets worse as the coupon starts to banana and less of the plate is in contact with the table.

Things didn't personally click with me until I'd started running beads on 3/8 or even thicker plate which gave me a lot more forgiving learning curve when it came to keeping a tighter arc/managing travel speed, it helped me perfect heat control which in turn translated over to being able to weld even much thinner than 1/8 material.

[Jeff2016]

Hi Sbaker56,

Sorry for the confusion. I am using 1/16" filler. (3/32" is the tungsten.)

Totally understand what you are saying about the stick-out.

I know there was a lot of advice against coupons. They take a bigger bite on the expenses; but, the ones I have been buying are free of any mill scale. I have purchased 1/8" thick 2" x 8" and 2" x 4". I have a supply of 1/16" in the same sizes. I also have about 20 of the 1/4" thick 2" x 8". I have used some scrap; but, the process of removing the mill scale is pretty time intensive.

The banana situation with the plate after running multiple passes is something that I totally relate to.

I haven't tried welding on the 1/4" coupons yet. I'll take your advice and give that a try.

Thanks for all of your advice.

Jeff

[sbaker56]

Honestly, I don't necessarily find it a terrible idea to buy premade cold rolled steel coupons simply because every person I've ever instructed on tig has not understood what completely scale and corrosion free looked like without being shown/corrected repeatedly, it's one less thing to worry about if they're already free of mill scale. The main problem especially when you get into thicker coupons of course is cost. But seeing as you have 20 1/4" coupons I'd highly recommend you try to pad beads on one of those first, allowing it to cool/quenching it in water every few passes. Here's a video Jody did using exactly the same size 1/4" coupons you have. One caveat, is I wouldn't suggest switching/alternating hands this early on yet, once you've gotten comfortable with the drill then start considering switching hands but when you can't do it well with your dominant hand yet you'll not going to get as much out of training your non dominant hand equally as much.


https://youtu.be/uzIF0H02fBw

[Jeff2016]

Hey Everyone,

Slow progress. Mostly long periods of results that don't look acceptable followed by occasion results that suggest there may be some hope.

The two beads at the top were run this evening. They are run on 16 ga mild steel 2" x 8" coupons. The two beads show some promise, although they are not perfect. I ran the third bead (at the bottom) with the same parameters. I'm thinking the hotter base metal may have something to do with the washout.

20211212_195054 1920 x 1080 res.jpg (79.11 KiB) Viewed 7989 times

I know that none of these is perfect; but, for think metal the bead is pretty clean and there's almost no distortion caused by heat.

The key now is to become consistent with repeatable results.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Oscar]

Yes, those results are typical for over-heated base material. It looks like you're getting the hang of it.

[Jeff2016]

Hi Oscar,

Yes, those results are typical for over-heated base material. It looks like you're getting the hang of it.

Thanks for your input.

Do you have a rule of thumb for how close to ambient a base metal should be before welding? I've heard some people talk about quenching between beads. Since I'm still working with coupons, it's probably best to just let them cool without introducing anything that will add more contamination than necessary.

For the 16 ga I did start using a piece of scrap 0.25" aluminum under the coupon as chill bar of sorts. It really did help with the bead consistency (until everything got hot, lol).

The most difficult part of this to me finding a balance with my torch and filler rod hands. Trying to maintain enough support without putting too much weight on them is really difficult. I really haven't read that much about experienced welders making suggestions about posture or exercises that will help. I know things will go completely out the window with out of position welding; but, for now I'm sitting at a comfortable table.

Thanks again.

Jeff

[cj737]

Your top bead shows way too much heat at the start, then “about right” as you go along. The HAZ shows too long of an arc, probably due to too long of a stick out.

The wash-out on bead 3 is definitely over cooked metal, but again the HAZ tells the real story- too long of an arc length.

You can’t practice on 16ga and not quench in between runs with 1/16 filler. Material just won’t take it.

Your beads also show too much filler being introduced for the thickness and flat position. This is a downside to only flat welding and worsened by thin material. Maybe it’s fine for “timing” drills, but your practice regimen should be way past this by now (even if you don’t feel you’re perfect yet). Start welding joints. This will help you the most to understand heat, arc length, and how much filler to add.

[Jeff2016]

cj737,

Thanks for your input.

I'm using a no. 8 cup and 1/2" of stickout. Should I be running less than 1/2"?

Also, I'm using 0.045 filler for the 16 gauge.

The amount of filler to be added has been kind of an unknown to me for flat welds. Do you have any advice for how much filler I should target? I know I'm kind of all over the place with this.

The arc length is definitely a big challenge for me. Trying to run less than a 1/16" gap between the tungsten and the weld pool, and not much more is difficult with less than perfect vision (in spite of having a cheater in the helmet).

I only posted the one pic of the 16 ga as it's become my focus lately. I also practice on 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4". Most of what I are flat welds, butt joints, lap joints and outside corner joints. I try to mix practice so that I don't concentrate too much on any one thing, although the 16 gauge is the most challenging for me, so I try to spend a little more time on it.

Thanks again for your input.

Jeff

[cj737]

“How much filler” to use for the bead in a flat position is terribly difficult to explain. But you weld and beads should be much flatter and less “ropey” or “wormy” in character.

However much filler you are introducing per step, reduce it by half and then examine the weld. You will begin to see the difference.

For best training, no more stickout than 1/2 the cup diameter (#8 cup, stickout 1/4” max). Even bring the tip of the tungsten closer the to lip of the cup. This will reduce the dipping. It will also make visualizing the puddle more difficult but force you to orient your body into a more correct position to see what the heck you’re welding. I often weld straight towards me, cup behind the puddle and arc between the cup and my eyes so I can keep a super tight arc and still see.

The tighter the arc, the better heat control, the better the puddle consistency because you can see the puddle grow with each dab of filler, push a bit farther with too much filler, add a bit more when you’re short on filler.

[Jeff2016]

Hi CJ,

Thanks for all of your advice.

The proper amount of fill is really confusing. Too many beautiful Tig weld pictures on the Internet. I'll focus on a lower profile. In terms of color, will that be one of the qualities that I should look for?

I wrote you privately about the stickout. In addition to what I said in that message, I also thought I should mention that I am using a no. 8 Pyrex with the gas lens. I know that it was said when I first started this thread that I should focus on a standard ceramic cup. I did that, only changing to the Pyrex about a month ago after watching one of Jody's videos where he talked about the vision benefits (mainly lighting) that cup provided to him. I need every benefit I can get when it comes to vision.

That leads to another question that I really struggle with. In your opinion, what is the best starting point for the welder output setting. I have heard that the rule of thumb is 1A for every 0.001". So, for 1/16" that would suggest 62.5A. (I have been starting out at 65.) I know that watching the puddle and working the pedal really need to be the basis, though. (For 1/8" that rule would suggest 125A. I have been working with much less... 95A.)

The heat affected zone is another detail that's hard to understand. I know you don't want to end up with a large heat affected zone; but, I also know you don't want to be laying down a bead on cold metal. Is there a target I should set as a goal? 1/8", or maybe 1/4" on each side of the bead?

In the past I have tried what you suggested about welding towards me. I have found it to be pretty helpful in some ways. The thing that really gets me with any position I have tried is with depth perception for some part of the process. Welding towards me I have a lot of trouble judging the distance between the end of the filler rod and the leading edge of the puddle. I'll try again, maybe with a slight diagonal to help me see the end of the filler better.

Thanks again to you and everyone else for all of the advice you have provided.

Jeff

[Arno]

The heat affected zone is another detail that's hard to understand. I know you don't want to end up with a large heat affected zone; but, I also know you don't want to be laying down a bead on cold metal. Is there a target I should set as a goal? 1/8", or maybe 1/4" on each side of the bead?

As small a HAZ as possible is pretty much what you want.

But this is one of those things that needs more seat time to get comfortable with as the size of the HAZ is dependent on the time you spend on the weld.

Heat from the arc takes time to start to warm up the base material around the weld and cause the HAZ to form.

To get a small HAZ you basically need to move fast so the heat from the arc oes not have enough time to soak the base metal and raise it's temperature.

But.. You can only move fast if you increase the welding amps to get a 'hotter' arc and get a puddle that can be pushed along quickly while still getting enough penetration.

And this is the hard part.. You can only do this if you are comfortable at feeding the rod and dabbing it has become an almost automatic, muscle memory, process.

Everyone who starts out with TIG tends to have to move slow and keep a lower amperage, which tends to heat-soak the base material a lot more and creates a big HAZ.

Very simple answer basically is: lots of seat time..

Once you notice that you are no longer 'thinking' about the process of holding the torch, feeding the rod, etc. you can (and will) start to read the puddle more and speed up your actions, reduncing the HAZ on your welds and you have the spare capacity in your brain now to take note of other things. Initially all your focus and effort will be in just not dipping the tungsten or jamming the rod somewhere and you have no time or attention left for much more..

Us humans can only focus and work on so much at once.. Quite little actually

Anyone with a drivers license probably remembers the initial struggle and almost panic of 'operating a vehicle' AND watcing the road and the other nuts behind the wheel while after a few years the process of actually driving a car is virtually automatic and you start to look much further ahead and notice trouble brewing on a highway a mile away.. (unless these days you're stuck in/on a mobile phone screen while driving.. just don't do that.. Again.. Not enough attention span to do that.. )

Bye, Arno.