[Rick van winkle]

Im hoping someone can help me figure out whats gone wrong. Ive been spending an hour or so a day for about a week trying to build some tig fundamentals. Ive never tried to tig before this. Ive got an ahp alphatig, using the footpedal. Things were progressing along to my satisfaction just welding mild steel coupons. I hung it up one night with no problems. the next day i went to practice some more but first i swapped in a fresh tungsten. When i took the back cap off the torch my collett was twisted up at the tail and seized into the collett body. I did get the torch too hot the night before. Since the collett and collett body were stuck together i decided to go ahead and put one of jody's gas lens kits on it. So now i have a new gas lens setup, and a fresh electrode. When i lit up the arc was all over the place with a huge arc plume and as soon as the metal starts to puddle ive got sparks and tons of porosity. The porosity reminds me of mig when you forget to turn the bottle on. So ive tried everything i can think of to figure it out and that leads me here. As of right now ive got a gas lens kit on my 17 torch with a brand new never used sharp tungsten, my mild steel coupon has all the mill scale ground off the surface. I checked for argon/air leaks by putting my thumb over the torch head rubber with only a back cap on it. Then i touch the pedal to open the gas valve and the line is holding argon pressure against my thumb for as long as i hold it there. I used soapy water to check for argon leaks at the bottle connection and the back of the machine. No bubbles. When i light up the arc walks all over the place and comes off the side of the electrode. Swap electrode same problem. As soon as you light up the tungsten is turning black and trying to ball up. Ive got it turned down to 10 amps right now just so its easier to watch what the arc is doing without melting the steel. Im getting a brownish white powdery deposit on the peice everwhere the arc goes too. With the amps turned up the arc behaves much like when ive got waaaaay to long of an arc length like if you push the pedal down before youre ready or pull out with the pedal still down. The arc is very loud, sooty, and sideways with a big plume.

Hopefully this pic doesnt end up being huge.

[exnailpounder]

Do you still have a standard collet body you can switch back to to see if it might be your machine? Never heard of a problem like that before. What cfh are you set at? 20cfh is a good starting point. Do you have your machine on the correct current for what you're welding? You might have accidentally switched it to AC? Based on the pics, thats at least a gas problem.

[Rick van winkle]

I dont have a new collett and body to try right now but ill pick some up. I have tried using the damaged ones i have with the exact same result. I was at 20cfh and turned it up to 30 to see what would happen but i didnt notice any difference. I did check that i was still on dc becasue how its affecting the tungsten i thought maybe it was on ac.

[Rupes]

Disassemble the torch would be my next step. Check the gas connection inside the torch and make sure its not damaged, in fact it only takes a few minutes I'd check the whole line. At least then you can rule that out. You may be able to block it off and get pressure, but It may not be flowing adequately to weld which is what it looks like, little to know gas.

Can't help but think you've ruled out everything but it being a gas problem. If it was an earth issue you'd still get an arc off the tip not the sides. If it was some unknown gunk on the new collet body etc you would have removed it when you changed back to your old stuff.

[Rupes]

my collett was twisted up at the tail and seized into the collett body.

You didn't put anti-seize on the threads of the new stuff did you?

[Kevin_Holbrook]

try a new collet , when they twist up like that the gas can be blocked


i'm guessing you don't have a flow meter ?

[Rick van winkle]

While I do identify myself as a mechanic and I'm always tempted to put stuff on threads I have not dne anything like that here. I'll take the torch apart more tonight to see what else I can look at. I'll also try a new standard colllet and body when I get them. The only flow meter I have is on the bottle is there a flow meter that goes in a different location or is used to troublshoot things?

[Poland308]

You get a flowmeter but you hold over the end of your gas cap to see if you're getting the same flow rate at the end of the gun as you get at the tank. Mostly just used by people they don't have a flowmeter at the tank or who are troubleshooting a gas problem. There cheap to get.

[raticus]

it looks and sounds like you're set on AC instead of DC. If it makes a bunch of crackling noise, it's probably on AC... You shouldn't hear anything if you're set to DC. Maybe your welder is wired up wrong, try switching to AC and see what happens.

how's your ground clamp? put the clamp directly on your piece that you're welding and see if there's an improvement.

how's your arc length? you should be almost touching the piece.

now this may be really far off, but what's the chance you're not actually using tungsten electrodes? could you possibly have accidentally put a piece of filler rod (or some other type of steel rod) in your torch thinking it was your tungsten?

and are you sure you're using 100% argon? could it be an argon/co2 mix that you were using when doing some MIG welding? or maybe something even more completely different?

[Rick van winkle]

it looks and sounds like you're set on AC instead of DC. If it makes a bunch of crackling noise, it's probably on AC... You shouldn't hear anything if you're set to DC. Maybe your welder is wired up wrong, try switching to AC and see what happens.

how's your ground clamp? put the clamp directly on your piece that you're welding and see if there's an improvement.

how's your arc length? you should be almost touching the piece.

now this may be really far off, but what's the chance you're not actually using tungsten electrodes? could you possibly have accidentally put a piece of filler rod (or some other type of steel rod) in your torch thinking it was your tungsten?

and are you sure you're using 100% argon? could it be an argon/co2 mix that you were using when doing some MIG welding? or maybe something even more completely different?

If its on ac its because something has gone haywire inside the machine. It was welding fine before and the switch is still in dc. Im positive im using tungstens it was welding fine one night and garbage the next day. The picture taken was with the ground clamp directly on the work piece. Im new so holding a tight arc is still a challenge but its not any longer than it was before this problem started. The bottle is labeled as 100% argon and since ive run several beads off this bottle without this problem.

[Rudy Ray]

^^^^^^
I have put a sharpened 3/32 stainless rod in place of tungsten once, it just made a mess of everything. Go figure.

[MosquitoMoto]

OP -

The first thing I'd try would be to switch back to all standard torch fittings and have a go.

Another idea...do you have a friend with a Tig rig? Can you take your torch setup to him/her and see if it works with their machine?

[Rick van winkle]

Thanks for all the ideas so far guys. I remived the torch body from the line and i can easily blow through the torch body and the torch hose with my mouth. The flared connection where the torch nut threads onto the hose looks perfect. I dont have any friends who mess with tig at all so im alone on that. Im thinking ill buy another torch head and standard collett setup to go in it and see where that gets me. Even if they arent the problem it wont hurt to have extras.

[Rick van winkle]

^^^^^^
I have put a sharpened 3/32 stainless rod in place of tungsten once, it just made a mess of everything. Go figure.

Just to be safe i did double check and ive got the blue stripe on the end still.

[Least honorable]

Noticed you said you put a gas lens kit after, then it started welding all weird, not beforehand, so 2 things one of which might solve your problems, at my school I was welding with 20cfh and had no problem without a gas lens, when I went to put my own gas lens on it the arc was basically doing what its doing to you, and then I turn on the preflow to like 10s so I can feel the gas, on my palm, and it felt like a gust of wind, no doubt was probably 60-80 cfh, had to put the flowmeter on 3-5cfh for it to act like it was on 20. This was in fact on an an old torch, but might still apply to your case, and having too much gas can be just as bad as having none. So if you want, try to go back with your old setup without the gas lens, see if that might fix it.

As for your collet problem, pretty sure you've figured it out but just in case, I'd you use solid collets, they will virtually never twist (by solid I mean ones with no slit)

Regards

Noah

[noddybrian]

If the problem only started with fitting a gas lens can we see a picture of how you have it fitted ? unless you managed to find the elusive 1piece teflon insulator you fit the one in the gas lens kit WITH the original otherwise there will be a gap where it meets the torch body & atmosphere will be sucked in giving issues like you describe - happens quite often - there are several recent other posts covering it.

[exnailpounder]

If the problem only started with fitting a gas lens can we see a picture of how you have it fitted ? unless you managed to find the elusive 1piece teflon insulator you fit the one in the gas lens kit WITH the original otherwise there will be a gap where it meets the torch body & atmosphere will be sucked in giving issues like you describe - happens quite often - there are several recent other posts covering it.

I don't use that teflon insulator and I have never had a gas issue. The gas lens threads into the torch handle, and the ceramic cup threads onto the body of the gas lens so how is it possible to draw in air? Through the cup threads? That is the only way it can do it. It has never been clear to me how people are having leaks without using this mystery insulator. On my torch, when the cup is threaded onto the gas lens, there is a small gap but someone needs to explain to me why my torch has never leaked or drawn in air. I have never had a gas problem with this torch or the torch on my other machine that was set up the same way.

20170210_154115.jpg (38.13 KiB) Viewed 2132 times

The gas is routed through the torch handle and through the gas lens where it passes through the screen and out the cup. The only way air could be drawn in is if the cup was very loose.

[Rick van winkle]

If the problem only started with fitting a gas lens can we see a picture of how you have it fitted ? unless you managed to find the elusive 1piece teflon insulator you fit the one in the gas lens kit WITH the original otherwise there will be a gap where it meets the torch body & atmosphere will be sucked in giving issues like you describe - happens quite often - there are several recent other posts covering it.

I stopped by my lws on the way home today. Bought some new collets and bodies to go back to my old setup. They also loaned me a torch to try. I just tried the new standard collett setup in my old torch. The problem is still there but the arc is a little more stable but if i try to puddle its instant porosity and sparks. So i put their new loaner torch head on my hose and the issue doesnt change. They sent me a hose too but its doesnt have the right connections for my machine. So i guess the next step is try a new hose? I did move my hose to make it a little neater when i was installing the collett body so maybe a bad connection in the hose is why my arc is a kittle better today? I do have the special teflon washer its part of the weldmonger kit i bought.


I must have explained the situation a little oddly in my first post. The problem started with the standard collet body setup and i bought the gas lens kit to try and fix it. I originally had just asumed the collett was damaged somehow when i overheated it. That and the collett body being seized in it meant i had to replace it anyway.

[Rick van winkle]

The picture of gas lens setup as requested. Is this right?

[exnailpounder]

Yessir! You can see in the pic of my torch that my front insulator is shorter and there is a gap but it has never caused a problem. If you can get her welding, you will love the gas lens. Let us know if you figure it out. Pick up a couple shorter tail caps when you hit the LWS. Very cheap and they come in handy getting in tight spots. Save those stubby little tungstens too...you can use them down to the nub,

[Rudy Ray]

I once had gotten the gas line pinched between the bottle and the bottle rack. When you initiated the gas flow you would get the little puff sound and feel the gas flow but then it petered out to so little flow it was worth nothing. It took me a while to figure it out but after moving the gas hose everything went back to normal.

[Poland308]

If you over heated your torch it's posible the cable inside your lead melted through the gas hose internally. I've done that. You may have melted enough stuff inside the hose to cause a restriction.

[Arno]

The picture of gas lens setup as requested. Is this right?

I know people leave them out, but for the gas lense cup you officially need to fit the second spacer/seal between the tapered end and the cup, so it looks like this:



Bye, Arno.

[exnailpounder]

I guess we are all going to have to agree to disagree on the mystical torch cup gasket.

[raticus]

^^^^^^
I have put a sharpened 3/32 stainless rod in place of tungsten once, it just made a mess of everything. Go figure.

ha, yeah, that's why I said that... I did the same thing once... that's what I get for having a cluttered messy welding table, "oh good, there's a length of tungsten! i'll just sharpen that up..." fail.