[signsforsandiego]

I have a sign shop and need to weld a few things. The demand is pretty light. I need to weld Aluminum square pipe (1X1, 2X2 and 4X4) to flanges and to other pipes. At the moment I have 4 flanges – this is pretty typical of the weekly needs.

So I think I need TIG, I know that buying a huge unit is a waste, so I know I am on the starter end of the spectrum.

I like used (if the discounts are good) and while my demand may grow, I think I would be asking the same questions if I were 3 or 4 times the current demand. Because the volumes are so low, speed is not a big issue. Ease of use is, having the ability is, speed - not so much.

Somebody will ask – why not go outside? Simple, I want control over the timing quality and exact why things are done. I also what to learn this so I can take advantage of the skill in other ways (like weld some work tables or a fence or such). I would like to weld other metals, but Aluminum is my target.

I found a MILLER TIG / stick welder 208/220V ECO TWIN HF for $500. I am not should if this has a foot pedal. I am not sure why that is important.

What should I buy?

[Artie F. Emm]

Will your signs be viewed close up, or from a distance?

If the answer is "from a distance", I wonder if MIG might be a better consideration for you. A MIG welder with a spoolgun would handle your aluminum and steel welding requirements with less learning curve. If you have employees doing the work the likelihood of getting a passable weld is greater with MIG than TIG.

I use TIG every chance I get (because I need the seat time / practice / experience) but when time and productivity are concerns, MIG offers speed and flexibility.

[signsforsandiego]

The one we are working on at the moment is a ceiling sign (Actually 2) in a hospital. The sign hangs down from the ceiling and says "START HERE". You can imagine. There are 2 answers on the distance.

The customer will see the sign and be close enough to touch it, as will the installers. They judge the quality from the look and they are top of it. The people in the hospital will be at least 5 feet away and most will be 30 feet away (5 feet is looking straight up at it", 30 foot is reading the sign. Also, they are -reading the sign- not looking at the legs of the signs

thumb_IMG_3621_1024.jpg (26.02 KiB) Viewed 2216 times

[Alumike]

So let me understand this. You don't know what kind of welder to buy, but you think you can do a better job of welding than a professional welder. These are signs hanging from height above peoples' heads? Buy the cheapest machine you can find, use the savings for additional liability ins.

[soutthpaw]

So let me understand this. You don't know what kind of welder to buy, but you think you can do a better job of welding than a professional welder. These are signs hanging from height above peoples' heads? Buy the cheapest machine you can find, use the savings for additional liability ins.

Good points here, assuming you are in sue happy Kalifornia. TIG takes quite a bit of practice, MIG on thin aluminum is as hard or harder to do right than TIG on the same type of material, but much easier to make a good looking weld that is not a sound weld IMHO. If you truly want to learn, make a trip up to LA this week and I'll be happy to give you a lesson in the basics, but it all comes down to seat time and practice. This way you can assess what's involved and if it's something you really want to invest in. Just bring some practice material that you want to weld. I do have my own welder sales business so I can offer you a couple different brands of machines if you are interested. But mostly I enjoy welding and happy to spend a bit of time teaching others if they are interested. (I used to teach vocational education classes) I'm only in town through Saturday, then home to NV. You can PM me if you have any interest.
Oh, yes you absolutely need a foot pedal for aluminum TIG.

[Louie1961]

The Econotig is only going to be good enough for the thinnest aluminum and will be duty cycle restricted. If I were you I would invest in a decent MIG machine with spool gun. Time is money. you need to get your welds done fast. TIG is time intensive. MIG is designed for production work. Non-welders will not appreciate the appearance differences in TIG and MIG. It will all look the same to them. Plus you can always sand down your joints to clean them up. Don't worry about the soot with MIG welding aluminum it brushes off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUpmiDL92V8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AT4cEHtMn8

[soutthpaw]

I going to take a wild guess that he will probably use a lot of 16ga aluminum. That is a real bear to do by spoolgun. Notice the miller calculator in the video only goes to 1/8" which is 2x the thickness of 16ga.

[Artie F. Emm]

Going back to the OP's first post: i saw the Miller TIG unit you mentioned had closed for $150 on ebay, altho i didn't read what amount of accessories came with that sale. Before you decide on ANY machine, take a moment to compare electrical input requirements, both voltage and amperage, to the circuit you have in your shop.

A foot pedal allows you to vary the intensity of the arc so you can match the needs of the weld at a given moment.

Part of your decision process is so entirely dependent on you that no one else can decide it for you. TIG requires manual dexterity and few people pick it up quickly- you'd be ahead if you already had welding experience. You work with your hands so you may have a jump on it, but you'll also need to make a durable, competent weld, not just a good-looking weld.

Southpaw is a contributing member at this site and others, and while i've never met him, based on his history of posting his offer is genuine. He may not have used equipment available- possibly a demo?

Another consideration: MIG will require pure argon for aluminum, and an argon/co2 mix for steel. (On thicker material you could use pure co2.) So storage of high pressure cylinders, cylinder rent, etc. may be factors.

What thickness aluminum do you expect?

[dynasty200sd]

What should I buy?

If you have no familiarity with welding, besides consumables and equipment, I recommend getting books dealing with welding theory in general. It helps because of being able to understand what is happening when making a weld. Also, by learning the terminology used, etc..

One book I picked up several, several years ago when I was 100% green when it came to welding was Welding Essentials: Questions and Answers. Stopping into a public library also is worth it to find college level/vocational school level textbooks on the subject.

[Superiorwelding]

There were posts reported here and I see nothing that demands action.

There are valid points here. To the OP, I understand where you are coming from by wanting to learn a skill that you can use for yourself and I respect the desire for quality, especially for the type of work. However, I would highly advise you take some classes in tig welding before you jump in full steam ahead. Tig is not the easiest to learn for most and if you are welding flanges on signs for a hospital I would want you to have full confidence in the weld(s) you laid down before they were hung.

At this point since you are new to welding the machine type is less important than the learning aspect. Used machines are fine but I wouldn't skimp out either. Remember you are a business and not just a hobbiest in his garage.
-Jonathan

[MinnesotaDave]

I have a sign shop and need to weld a few things. The demand is pretty light. I need to weld Aluminum square pipe (1X1, 2X2 and 4X4) to flanges and to other pipes. At the moment I have 4 flanges – this is pretty typical of the weekly needs.

So I think I need TIG, I know that buying a huge unit is a waste, so I know I am on the starter end of the spectrum.

I like used (if the discounts are good) and while my demand may grow, I think I would be asking the same questions if I were 3 or 4 times the current demand. Because the volumes are so low, speed is not a big issue. Ease of use is, having the ability is, speed - not so much.

Somebody will ask – why not go outside? Simple, I want control over the timing quality and exact why things are done. I also what to learn this so I can take advantage of the skill in other ways (like weld some work tables or a fence or such). I would like to weld other metals, but Aluminum is my target.

I found a MILLER TIG / stick welder 208/220V ECO TWIN HF for $500. I am not should if this has a foot pedal. I am not sure why that is important.

What should I buy?

I buy high quality used equipment - there are several that are good and prices vary depending on location.

Foot control is a must for thin aluminum in my opinion - I've done it without, and 1/16" aluminum sucks without one.

Learning curve is pretty steep. After the 1st 100 hours it gets much easier in my opinion.

Don't worry about jumping into tig - it's just a skill and skills can be learned - good luck to you

[signsforsandiego]

Hi

I did go with a Millier Diversion 165 with a tank and a bunch of rods and a cart. It has a foot pedal. The guy threw is a grinder on a stand to prep the rods. It looks like it is about 4 years old and very lightly used $850

I still need a hood, gloves and some small stuff, but I think I have a good machine for under $1000.

I think I will have the Aluminum in a couple of days and will be welding next week

[motox]

though not a welder by trade i have been tig welding
for over 20yrs.. this is just my advise for what its worth.
pic up some clean cold rolled steel and start on that on
a flat bench before aluminum.
craig

[DSM8]

Where in SD is your shop located I am certain there is someone on this board that would be willing to come down and maybe spend some hood time with you tog et you started. I am in LA (100 miles north of you). If you make the drive up I can teach you on a dinosaur of a machine but at least you can get the fundamentals down and understand the diff between AL and ST and Stainless etc.

PM me if interested.

[Otto Nobedder]

Where in SD is your shop located I am certain there is someone on this board that would be willing to come down and maybe spend some hood time with you tog et you started. I am in LA (100 miles north of you). If you make the drive up I can teach you on a dinosaur of a machine but at least you can get the fundamentals down and understand the diff between AL and ST and Stainless etc.

PM me if interested.

That is why I love this place...

Steve S

[Poland308]

I'm from the mid west it took me a bit to figure out how Lousiana was only 100 miles from South Dakota.

[Otto Nobedder]

I'm from the mid west it took me a bit to figure out how Lousiana was only 100 miles from South Dakota.

Yeah, the lack of punctuation gave me a moment's pause, as well...

S.D. and L.A. are not the same places as SD and LA...

Steve S

[zank]

LOL!

[signsforsandiego]

Really THANK YOU. Very kind. If you are down my way - please come by! But let me see if I have a need before I cry uncle here

The wiring should be complete this morning (240V straight out of the power box - 12" of conduit), I have a couple of jobs stacked up ready for this (A 4X4 post with 2 arms and a square sign and a 10 X 3 foot frame) where the Aluminum is purchased, stacked on my shop floor and waiting. I have one guy on staff that welded at NASCO (A ship builder in San Diego). The guy welded 8 hours a day, every day for a long time. He think his Mig and Stick skills will let him figure out TIG - I think he is probably correct. So I think by Monday or Tuesday I should know what I can do and where I am on this project.

The company is in Oceanside California www.signsforsandiego.com

I am feeling pretty positive about it. I think for the money I have in it, I could turn around and sell it back into the market without losing my skin if the thing fails on me. I think for my light duty projects, the machine seems about right, but if a heavier unit is needed, this experience is still going to be very helpful and pretty much risk free. I could sell the machine, turn around and buy a 185 or 200.

My other choices were a LINCOLN, SQUARE WAVE TIG 175 for about the same money ($950), but w/o an Argon tank and a Miller Welder Syncrowave 180 SD for $1200 (with tank), I missed on both (distance, timing, my hesitation, other buyers). That is 3 welders coming up in a month. All would have been great deals. So I think I have the answer to my original question. I also think I will have a result (pictures and weld results) very soon.

[DSM8]

Well then a few things to make sure you have on hand before you do anything.
The materials necessary to remove the oxidation from the AL (Dedicated SS brush, Acetone to wipe down). Cleanlyness is critical.
Correct Tungsten for the job, I like 2% Ceriated, Jody Recommends 2% Lathenated (I would use his recommendation).
Are you using Air cooled or water cooled torch, use cycle differs between the two (mostly for the end users comfort).

I assume the AL your using is 6061 in which case you want to make sure you have the right filler rod (4043 IIRC) for the job.
Store the rods in sealed tubes it helps keep down the oxidation on the rods which at times can play havoc with the weld when starting out.

Practice.

Remember the diameter of the tungsten and rod are both related to the thickness of the material your welding. Might also want to get a copper spoon so you have something to start the arc on if the material is very thin to reduce your blowing holes through it when the arc initiates.

Then you get into AC balance etc depending on the machine, I have a dinosaur so mine dont do not of that fancy pants stuff...

[signsforsandiego]

Hi here is the result. The welder was $850, the hood and supplies were $200, I picket up the table for $50 so I am in it for $1100 as shown. The first results show a few issues at the termination, and a bit of learning curve, but very doable. Also the quality of the weld looks good, the 2 ends are melting before the rod contacts them, so I am pretty sure I have a strong weld. We are going to work on improving the look over the weekend, but we are making good welds. With a 1/8" square tube wall, I am not seeing any distorting on the metal

All good

Weld example

Tig First try 3.JPG (38.85 KiB) Viewed 1529 times

weld example

Tig First try 2.JPG (28.01 KiB) Viewed 1529 times

The setup

Tig First try 5.JPG (51.57 KiB) Viewed 1529 times

[Poland308]

Sounds like you got a good deal. Good luck with the practice.

[signsforsandiego]

Thank you for the help on this topic

Frank http://www.signsforsandiego.com

[MosquitoMoto]

You've done well, Frank.

And if you ever want to know you've made a good, strong weld, just do what I do...take your practise pieces, put them in the vice and beat the daylights out of them!




Kym

[DSM8]

Sounds like you got yourself a nice setup.
One thing about your table it looks like the top is painted

It is a little spendy but get yourself a nice AL plate to put on top of that table this way you can ground to the plate and then anything you weld can be done right on top of the plate and not grounded directly to the machine with a clamp.
This can speed up your work quite a bit if doing a number of small tacks etc.

I also now live in Escondido so the offer is still there but I am a lot closer so much easier of a drive.

PM me if needed.