[Petertb]

Hi chaps, wondering if someone could advise me here. I bought a used Cebora 160 ac/dc tig welder on eBay, included in the sale was a large air products argon gas bottle. I connected the old looking regulator with flow meter up to it and turned the tap, nothing. I've never dealt with gas bottles before and after spending hours on the Internet searching I came up with nothing. I assumed the bottle was empty, despite its weight, so as a last resort I decided to poke this little round thing inside the outlet on the bottle. Could have been a very stupid thing to do, but.. Gas came out, and when I stopped pressing it stopped. So I put the regulator back on and still nothing. No gas is released when the tap is turned with no regulator on which I think should happen? I don't know, I've attached some pictures so you can see what I'm talking about.

IMAG0468.jpg (65.02 KiB) Viewed 1323 times

IMAG0466.jpg (67.83 KiB) Viewed 1323 times

IMAG0469.jpg (44.82 KiB) Viewed 1323 times

Also at the time I collected this bottle I didn't know it should be on rental, no idea where I stand having it in my possession now?

Thanks very much, Peter.

[Otto Nobedder]

Welcome, Perterb

You've done no harm, the bottle's just empty. It sould give a hell of a rush of gas if you open it without the regulator attached.

The rental bottle is not really an issue. Usually, all you have to do is take it to the supplier and swap it for a full bottle (faster and easier than owning a bottle and waiting on a refill). You won't owe for a rental; Once the initial lease price was paid by the original purchaser, the price of recertification and all other supplier overhead is figured in the exchange price.

Steve S

[noddybrian]

Sadly things are not quite so straight forward here Steve - both Air Products & BOC cylinders are rented - if you wish to have one filled then you must have an account with them - if you take that cylinder to an Air Product stockist they will simply take it off you as it remains for it's life their property - only way your getting it filled is to get friendly with a welding firm that uses that brand & get them to do it for cash - even then you will need to deface the bar code so it won't scan as the bottles are recorded by bar code to the account holder on delivery - gas in this country is a major headache hence many use CO2 available by jumping over the back wall / fence of any pub !

[Petertb]

Thanks for your quick reply! I see, so the gas that escapes when I press that button is just to keep the cylinder from filling up with normal air? I'm just surprised because there's a big rush, hurt my ears!
Thanks again, Peter.

[noddybrian]

I think maybe the cylinder has some gas in but requires a regulator that pushes that valve open when fitted - I've not encountered it though as my cylinders are from our robbing bar stewards at BOC - as there are only really two suppliers in the UK I'm sure there must be a member in the UK can advise on this that uses Air Products.

[Otto Nobedder]

Yes, if there's a big rush, there must be a specific fitting for it (unusual on argon in the states.) Also didn't realize this was a UK issue... I usually recogize UK members by the way they write. There are distinct spelling and phrasing differences, and I guess your post just didn't include the ones that catch my attention.

In the U.S. the rental is not an issue. In the U.K., listen to noddybrian's advice, and expect others to comment with solid knowledge. At the very least, finding the right fitting for the bottle should let you use whatever's left in the bottle.

Steve S

[Braehill]

In the US air products sold their cylinder business to Airgas. So all cylinders branded Air Products here are now property of Airgas. That cylinder does require a regulator to be attached the open the built in safety.

Len


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Petertb]

Thanks very much chaps, liking this forum already! I've been looking at lots of argon regulators on the net and can't see any that look like they'd be able to depress this valve. It seems like there's a lot of gas in there so I'd be very happy if someone could point me in the direction of one.
Or do you think the one in the picture is fine and I'm doing something wrong?
Cheers, Peter

[Otto Nobedder]

Len,

(This is meant as an aside, not a hijack)

When we have helium bottles recertified at retest time, they are repainted, and we put the AP neck-ring decals on them, even if they came in with AIrGas labels. Of course, the (usually two) onboard bottles are charged through a common fill valve at AP at the same time the trailers are loaded, rather than sent out to AG, for obivous and practical reasons.

Also, while the recert is for ten years, we peen out the star on the bottle, leaving the plus, making the cert valid for only five years.

Steve S

[Otto Nobedder]

Peterb,

Now that I think about it a bit more, it's a bit suspicious that the bottle that came with the deal does not work with the regulator provided. It's possible (if unlikely) the bottle was stolen, and then it was discovered it would not work with the standard fitting on the regulator...

Be prepared for that possibility, and let your consience be your guide as to whether you want to use the gas before checking on this. If it's stolen, there may be a small reward for coming forward, as opposed to the (admittedly minimal) risk from sitting on stolen property.

Steve S

[Superiorwelding]

Peter,
I have personally never seen a valve like that one. I will show it to my LWS and see what they say.
-Jonathan

[Petertb]

I think it's pretty unlikely that it is stolen. I completely forgot to ask the seller anything about the bottle, focusing on the welder, I wouldn't have bothered hauling it back if it was empty. I read somewhere, probably about propane bottles, that if they've been near horizontal a safety valve might kick in. No idea if argon bottles have a similar system. I had it laid down in my car, not flat, I'd say about 20 degrees, might this have done something?
Thanks again, Peter.

[RichardH]

Peter, when you say it is an Air Products cylinder, where exactly do you see this marking?

Rental bottles have the owner's name in raised letters on the collar where yours says "300 Bar". The label on the cylinder is just the last shop that filled it, and doesn't mean they own it. In the latter case, you should be able to get it refilled at any gas provider; shop around first, as the price of gas has a lot of variety.

It does seem like your cylinder has an odd fitting on it, similar to a propane tank which won't release gas unless a regulator is attached to depress the safety valve in the fitting. This doesn't sound normal, and the LWS can likely solve the mystery or exchange the valve for you, though the gas inside would be lost and you'd pay for a refill.

And, no, there's no tip valve like you're thinking of; laying it down for transport isn't a problem.

Cheers,
Richard

[Petertb]

IMAG0467.jpg (39.46 KiB) Viewed 1362 times

Took a picture of the neck. It does have a raised air products logo on the same bit as the 300bar, just in shot. The valve also has the Air products logo stamped into it.
Peter

[noddybrian]

Hi Peter - I got a theory on your cylinder - I've not found a new Air products cylinder with 300 bar on - but I have several here that have 200bar in raised letters on the neck - this is the fill pressure so I believe yours is filled to 300 bar ( BOC changed a while back from 200 to 230 & a big song & dance was made that you needed new regulators - was more a marketing move as they still fit & work - though it eats into the safety factor slightly - this is not apparently a problem as BOC themselves used the same cylinders with the same test pressure but re-stamped them for the new service pressure ) as the usual safety factor on equipment is 1.5 > 1 if you used the same regulator this would be operating outside it's design limit - a similar thing happened with dive cylinders - over time charge pressure has increased & you can now get 300bar cylinders in certain sizes ( up to 12 liter from memory ) - to protect the unwary or redneck user they made the 300bar fitting slightly different so you could not use the wrong one - while I've not found anything concrete out directly I looked at new regulators & found both 230bar & 300bar inlet listed - therefore I believe to use the contents of that cylinder you likely need a 300bar regulator - with the price of argon here it would be worth buying a regulator - below is a Ebay link for one - you may get lucky & find a cheaper one but - hope this makes sense & you are able to use it.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GCE-UNICONTRO ... 33918437bb

[Braehill]

I believe that there are 3 different gauge valves used on Argon cylinders, CGA-580 for 200 bar (3000 lb), CGA-680 for 300 bar (4500 lb), and DISS 718 (Diameter Index Safety System) for critical application cylinders. The valve should be marked for one of these 3 configs. and you should not use an addapter under any circumstances.... Using the wrong regulator can cost you way more than the price of a cylinder of Argon. 4500 lbs. of pressure is nothing to mess with and please stop poking things in the valve, that's just stupid, about like checking a 480v circuit with a screwdriver jumped to the enclosure.

If it's a specialty cylinder as I think it is your local cylinder fill would more than likely be glad to exchange it for a regular 200 or 300 cylinder.

I have been avoiding this issue because of an association with the manufacturer but not letting the OP get hurt warrants a response.


My responses to this post are strictly unofficial in nature and are my own.

Len

[noddybrian]

Thanks for the input Braehill - what you say makes sense - I'd not had a 300bar as I use BOC - hopefully the OP will keep an eye on this topic & report back - if we assume the cylinder is even 1/2 full then the price of the regulator I posted a link to is worth buying compared with the gas cost here - you guys have it alot easier in the US of A - & the way it works here he cannot swap or do anything with that cylinder as he is not an account holder with that cylinder registered - they will will simply take it back as it's their property - you cannot own a 50 liter cylinder here - they always belong to the supplier - the largest hobby cylinder it's possible to buy is 20 liter - & more commonly it's 10.

Maybe there needs to be a safety related topic on high pressure gas here - I like to think I know enough not to do anything too dangerous - but until you've seen first hand a large failure such as a cylinder fall over & snap the valve off it's not obvious to everyone what can happen - maybe you could add some relevant info especially for the many welders that like to decant small cylinders for portable / home use from full size cylinders at work as I've seen some scary stuff used for this.

[GreinTime]

The biggest problem with him or Steve relaying any safety information directly related to a product of their employer is liability on their part. In my fathers case, anything he 'would' say could technically be construed as information from an employee of the aforementioned company, taken with confidence in the fact that he knows what he's talking about, hence his disclaimer at the end. At the end of the day though, that is not a legally binding clause or document, and would likely do him no good if someone in the future gets fucked up and provides a link back to this topic as their source of information.
Granted that would be a stretch, but it would be the same as me telling a truck driver that comes in that his wheel seal that's puking oil out will make it to Miami from Lima Ohio. If his wheel end fails anywhere between here and Miami, I am an expert he consulted due to the nature of my work at the truck stop, and could and likely would be held directly liable for any ensuing damages.

[noddybrian]

Point taken on liability - but lets try to ignore the names here - at least in the UK most cylinders ( steel ) are made by either " Faber " or " Heiser " - irrespective of who then adds their name - so we are dealing with a pressure vessel made by a third party - who fills the contents is not that relevant - so some basic advice on safe handling of high pressure cylinders & if decanting is safe would be of interest to many members especially in countries where gas supply is expensive & tied up in red tape - " Faber " also makes virtually all of the steel dive cylinders here - I'm sure if you belong to a dive forum there will be discussion on safety with cylinders - hopefully with advice from someone knowledgeable - the only difference is air / argon & divers do use argon as well - seems a shame if we have two resident experts but are unable to discuss a pertinent topic - after all we have discussed trailers / vehicles here that have liability issues on the road OK in the past - hope the OP gets sorted out or just buys the correct regulator & gets to use his new purchase.

[GreinTime]

Decanting to fill a cylinder is safe as long as you aren't trying to do it with garden hose and hoseclamps. Granted, there is no way that he could over pressurize that cylinder by equalizing pressure like he could if he were filling FROM that bottle.
And I wasn't trying to say that they shouldn't add their input but in this case, my father would technically be considered a representative of Air Products. Steve however would not, even though AP trailers are probably all that they do the shop he works at from what Braehill has told me about how they (AP) try and keep their subcontractors overbooked with their own work to prevent them from working on other customers stuff lol....sounds like a little monopoly going on to me!
In all seriousness though, unless you have worked for a cylinder fill shop, or have access to the appropriate hose and fittings and have common sense, I can't recommend decanting your own cylinders, especially ones that you have no idea on the history of.

[Otto Nobedder]

I can, in fact, comment on decanting cylinders... With the amazing volume of helium I use in leak detection, I frequently decant from one or both of the on-board cylinders to the bottle on my cart. We are also with 45 minutes of one of the major filling stations, and can send any number of bottles to be "bumped".

I am limited, to some extent, in what comments I cam make that relate directly to our clients. I can say we contractually promise our largest client a certain number of slots in our schedule. This does not exclude other clients, but it does limit their access, and "other clients" are usually sent to me, because we've established a reputation for vacuum work, or they're "quickie" repairs for immediate return to service on atmospheric trailers.

I'll try to get a picture of my very simple decanting rig, suitable for 200 Bar bottles. I've also got an N2 bottle that's charged to 6000 psi for a test I'll be doing soon, that has a different fitting configuration I'll get a shot of. I've got to hook it to a Haskel pump, and charge a system to 9600 psi (the maximum rating of the pump) to final-proof my welds (20% of which were x-rayed).

Steve S