2% lanthanated tungsten and aluminum

AKrider · Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:07 pm

I'm welding on 6061 tubing with 4043 rod and my 2% lanthanated 3/32 tungsten isn't cooperating. The tungstens are new from htp usa. I have there invertig 221 with amps at 180 max frq 150 and balance 65%. Any ideas what causes this? Gas rate is at 18cfm

Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:41 pm

Hey,

Welcome to the forum,

Your problem could be related to a small amount of moisture in your gas. Jody made a video on the problem a while back.

Mick

Oscar · Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:57 pm

I noticed that your tungsten is heat-discolored. It is too hot when the argon stops flowing on the post-flow. If the settings you are using you "must use", then you need to up your post flow time. Otherwise, you could try playing around with the settings to reduce the heat input into the tungsten. Everything you stop welding, after the post flow ends, your tungsten should look darn near the same way you started (of course except for the fact that will have a tiny little ball at the tip most of the time).

You haven't told us if this happens when you weld other metals like steel or stainless steel? Give it a shot and see what happens.

AKrider · Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:20 pm

I've got the post flow set at 6.5 second and preflow at .5. On steel the tungstens don't split.
Yesterday I actually watched the end of it split after a fresh sharpen with only welding for an 1" long
Is there a chance tungstens are bad from factory?

Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:56 pm

180 amps, even at 65%, may be "borderline" for an alloyed tungsten. I've run these settings with pure with no issues, but have no experience with the Lantanated, so this is, to an extent, speculation. I have splintered 3/32 thoriated at those settings, though.

Do you have the gear to try the same weld with 1/8"?

Steve S

Oscar · Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:58 pm

AKrider wrote:I've got the post flow set at 6.5 second and preflow at .5. On steel the tungstens don't split.
Yesterday I actually watched the end of it split after a fresh sharpen with only welding for an 1" long
Is there a chance tungstens are bad from factory?

pop a different one in there and you tell us.

Also keep in mind that the Invertig221 has a lot of settings. Perhaps you over-looked one. I know I have at times!

AKrider · Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:09 pm

With an inverter style machine, the pure tungstens don't work well. As for the settings, I've got pulse off, foot petal with hf on, slope down at 1.5.

I've got a set to run 1/8" tungstens. I've got 1.5 lanthanated and the radnor e3. Both tungstens don't look any better

Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:32 pm

I'm strongly leaning toward the idea of moisture in your gas, then. This is far more common than you'd think, and the source of many topics here.

This problem becomes more obvious as the bottle gets lower, it seems, from the stories.

Your welding supplier should be willing to analyse your bottle, and exchange it if needed.

Jody also has a video about this subject, and a dessicant gas-dryer to fix/prevent it.

Steve S

Superiorwelding · Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:57 pm

Here are some thoughts based on my experience with the Pyrex cup set up. I have found is if you don't slip the Pyrex correctly or don't use the o-ring it will obviously suck the oxygen in as well. Also, in future, watch out for getting "junk" in your screen that will impede your gas flow. You can try turning your gas up and see i that helps.
I am thinking it is a lack of shielding, leak in the gas line or it is to much amps for this size/quality of tungsten. I have never had this happen to my set up. To my knowledge I have never experienced the moisture in my gas tank, so I can't really advise on that.
I will have to look into ideas for a DIY set up for desacant filtering.
Just a few ideas for you.
-Jonathan

AKrider · Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:03 pm

I did notice lately that the Pyrex cup seems to be sitting a little loose lately. This is the only stubby set up I have at the moment and welding in tight corners. I'll try to get a stubby kit with the standard cups and try that. Thanks for all the info

AKweldshop · Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:03 pm

Welcome to the Forum AKrider!!! Where you located?? I'm right in Palmer....

Your problem looks gas related to me...
Double check everything, maybe with all different consumables....??

~John

rake · Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:44 am

I'd try bring the balance up to 70% and see if it clears up.
My inverter works fine at 70% but chew up tungsten below that at higher amperage.
I also have better luck sharpening to a blunter point when doing aluminum.

AKmud · Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:34 am

Welcome to the forum rider. What part of AK are you in?

Braehill · Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:09 pm

I'm with Rake on this one, that looks like a balance problem to me and not moisture in the gas. The Lanthanated tungsten doesn't seem to splinter like other alloyed ones do, they seem to crystalize for lack of a better term. If I overheat them with my transformer welder they do that same thing. I'd say change your balance or go to a larger tungsten.

The other thing that I think could cause this is maybe insufficient gas flow during the weld and during post flow. The longer your stick out is the more important your post flow is. When you shutdown the weld the end of the tungsten is the first thing to be exposed to the atmosphere, keep that torch in place throughout your post flow to keep it in the Argon stream. The heated Argon is rising away from the base metal so you get a residual benefit from it driving out the cooler atmosphere around it and off your tungsten.

This is where I believe that there is a slight shortcoming to using a large gas lens. They offer great coverage for the weld but at the cost of concentrated cooling for your tungsten. If you're putting 20cfh of shielding gas through say a 1/2" pipe it will be denser than the same 20cfh going through a 1" pipe because of the restriction.

Let me know if you guys think I'm wrong in my thinking, or if anybody has their own theory.

Len

zank · Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:22 pm

Is your screen adapter and collet a 3/32"? I know it's a dumb question, but...

AKrider · Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:31 am

I'm located in delta. And yes the collet body and screen are both 3/32.
I did change out the gas saver kit and switched back to the standard alumina cup and seemed to clear up the tungsten wear. There was a post mentioned earlier about air being able to make it pass from the back side of the Pyrex cup. I'm guessing that is because of the o-ring wearing out on the collet body adapter. Would that problem continue if I decided to get the gas saver with alumina cups?

rahtreelimbs · Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:35 pm

Something to think about. A while ago I phone Lincoln Welding in Cleveland Ohio. I spoke to one of their teachers at their tech school. We chatted about diamond wheels for sharpening tungsten and also about the cleanliness of the aluminum puddle while welding. I told him that I was using a gas lens and he said that I shouldn't. If I recall correctly it had something to do with the screen getting clogged when welding aluminum...............doesn't happen with stainless or carbon steels.

I have never heard of this before...............thought it would be worthwhile bringing it up here.

Can anyone elaborate on this???

NITROTRIP · Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:44 pm

HI AKrider,

I think Len nailed it. The only thing I can add is you need your post flow set
to at least 10-12 seconds. For 3/32 to have enough time to cool.
I think you mentioned 6 seconds.
For the grainey tip try backing your AC frequency down to 120hz at 180amps.
I get the same thing at higher freq on longer welds. I back the freq down and
it is not as bad, unless you are welding in a pocket or inside corner.

As for using a gas lens screen on aluminum, I would agree with the guy from
Lincoln but only with a very short cup. I don't think it is a problem with a standard
length cup.
RICK

Superiorwelding · Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:57 pm

rahtreelimbs wrote:Something to think about. A while ago I phone Lincoln Welding in Cleveland Ohio. I spoke to one of their teachers at their tech school. We chatted about diamond wheels for sharpening tungsten and also about the cleanliness of the aluminum puddle while welding. I told him that I was using a gas lens and he said that I shouldn't. If I recall correctly it had something to do with the screen getting clogged when welding aluminum...............doesn't happen with stainless or carbon steels.

I have never heard of this before...............thought it would be worthwhile bringing it up here.

Can anyone elaborate on this???

I would absolutely agree that your screen can and will get clogged. How long it would take and welding on which materials is up to opinion and how much you weld said material. I have "clogged" a stubby gas lens and completely ruined a Pyrex cup brazing silicon bronze.
Think of it this way, look at the walls in your shop or if you have access to the shop lights, look at the film that builds up there. The same will happen to the gas lens eventually.
In looking at the screen in the picture, it is possible that this could be a problem, but maybe not the whole problem.
My 2 cents
-Jonathan

rick9345 · Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:10 pm

250 Syncrowave
Draft free shopCK 230 Flexlok
Gas lense, 8 or 10 cup alumina 1/2in (sometimes more) tungsten stickout. 2% Lan 3/32
10cfh or less Argon
7-8 on balance
90-100 HF
post flow 10 sec or till tungsten stays clean (held close to weld till flow stops)
Less gas, quiter the HF is
Aluminum/carbon steel
works in the 40-180 amp range for me
per Jody secondary SS screen in cup any dirty welding (ie galvanized/cad plated etc) protects gas lens, better coverage

gamble · Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:16 pm

I'll chime in here.

18cfh isn't enough for that pyrex kit. Try 21 or 22cfh.
The 221 likes 65-70% so I'd say your balance is ok.
With the pyrex kit the stick out should be 5-6 times the diameter of the electrode. Those pyrex cups will melt at 500*. And if you have the balance too low that doesn't help either. Same melting temp for the orings.

If all else fails and it is moisture, do what I did. Install a filter such as the superdry in your gas hose. $9 for the filter and $5 at home depot for some barb fittings. I have yet to get a fuzzy or bearded tungsten and things weld much better.
http://www.usaweld.com/Super-Dry-for-Pl ... perdry.htm

rahtreelimbs · Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:26 pm

gamble wrote:I'll chime in here.

18cfh isn't enough for that pyrex kit. Try 21 or 22cfh.
The 221 likes 65-70% so I'd say your balance is ok.
With the pyrex kit the stick out should be 5-6 times the diameter of the electrode. Those pyrex cups will melt at 500*. And if you have the balance too low that doesn't help either. Same melting temp for the orings.

If all else fails and it is moisture, do what I did. Install a filter such as the superdry in your gas hose. $9 for the filter and $5 at home depot for some barb fittings. I have yet to get a fuzzy or bearded tungsten and things weld much better.
http://www.usaweld.com/Super-Dry-for-Pl ... perdry.htm

Using the same setup as the OP I have done the bulk of my TIG welding at 15 CFH..........sometimes as low as 10CFH.......hence the name Gas Saver Lens.