[theglassshroom]

Hello all. As you can guess, I'm a noobie. In school, we're working on running beads and walking the cup in the horizontal position on 1/4 mild steel. My issue is that I'm having a hard time evening out my beads. I'm told that I need to pause at the top so my beads aren't bottom heavy. As far as I can tell, I'm watching my puddle follow the arc all the way to the top, and I'm pausing for a second and not spending as much time covering the previous bead as I do with the top, yet I'm still getting a lot of build up on the bottom and the top looks dug out. My amperage is 100, and I'm using 1/8th er-70s-2. Any ideas? I'll post some pictures tomorrow. I have to get a new memory card for my camera. A good portion of my welds aren't pretty, but that's because I didn't cover my previous weld enough or my tie-ins were crappy. I'm just addressing the bottom-heavy issue for now.

[weldin mike 27]

Hey,

Welcome to the show. Firstly , let me ask, what level of "noobness" are you at? If total, i see little point in mucking around walking the cup before you have free hand down pat. Especially in the horizontal possie. I know pro pipe welders who dont do it. I would go back to free hand, no manipulation , stinger runs. The reason your runs looked the way they do is because the size of the weld pool is too big for the surface tension to hold up and caused it to sag, and when molten metal sags, it has to come from somewhere , hence the "Dug out look" called undercut.

Keep practicing but use baby steps, and dont sprint the 100 metres before you can walk.

Mick

[coldman]

I agree with what Mick says. Having said that, this problem can occur with free hand too. Firstly make sure you're not running too hot. Then try laying the wire along the joint and feed it into the top of the puddle (or even leave it in there). This will ensure you feed enough in and also help cool and solidify the puddle faster at the top of the joint while your heading down again thereby reducing sag.

[Mike]

Welcome to the forum theglassshroom.

[Otto Nobedder]

I disagree with the idea of "holding at the top". This puts in extra heat and allows the sag that makes the bottom fat. I will, as stated, feed at the top of the puddle, but I keep my hold-time very short. As soon as the rod melts in and the puddle flows out, I "twitch" quickly back to the bottom so what I've just put there stays, and then push (relatively) slowly back to the top for the next ripple.

Once you have it down solidly and can move at the "just right" pace, you won't need to focus on this issue.

Steve S

[coldman]

I disagree with holding at the top too, that that is not what I meant to say. I meant keep the wire at the the top and feed from there as the puddle needs it .
Holding the arc at one point in the 2G position is good for no man. I need to choose my words more carefully.

[theglassshroom]

i would love to be freehanding all of this, but i unfortunately have one of those dogmatic teachers that insists that everyone walk the cup whenever possible. i think walking the cup makes a pretty pattern and all, but it's strenuous and annoying. I'd rather prop and learn to stack dimes, but he doesn't seem to like anyone doing anything different than he does.

[AKweldshop]

i would love to be freehanding all of this, but i unfortunately have one of those dogmatic teachers that insists that everyone walk the cup whenever possible. i think walking the cup makes a pretty pattern and all, but it's strenuous and annoying. I'd rather prop and learn to stack dimes, but he doesn't seem to like anyone doing anything different than he does.

That's insane, every teacher should allow, and support the learning of both techniques.
You can't walk the cup on every joint.
here's some video's on this topic

http://welding-tv.com/2012/09/18/tig-we ... up-vs-not/
http://welding-tv.com/tig-welding-pipe- ... echniques/
http://welding-tv.com/walking-the-cup-t ... g-welding/

[theglassshroom]

https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 0062_n.jpg I hope this works. uploading photos on here is nightmare.

[Otto Nobedder]

I disagree with holding at the top too, that that is not what I meant to say. I meant keep the wire at the the top and feed from there as the puddle needs it ...

So we're all on the same page, coldman, I wasn't commenting on your suggestion (feeding at the top, I agree with). It was in the original post, his teacher was telling him to pause at the top, which we both disagree with..

Steve S

[coldman]

Thanks for the clarification Steve. I was having a bit of a soul search there thinking I was spreading bs. Ok now.

[theglassshroom]

I think I just have a bad teacher. He's extremely vague and hardly does anything to go about addressing an issue, he just shows you how he does it, which does little good without an explanation of the mechanics of it. Tonight he had us walking the cup 3g, and my welds were big and gnarly, and his reply was, "just practice." I argued that practice makes permanent, not perfect. Practicing improper technique only yields improper technique engrained into muscle memory. He once again debated this. I grabbed a 4th semester student, and his solution was to turn up my amperage to 110, and lo and behold, that corrected the issue. The great irony is that my instructor is a welding inspector with 15 years under his belt, and a 20 year old with less than a year under him showed up his teaching in two sentences.

[coldman]

I used to think that in school too sometimes. Later on I realised that my teachers did not want me to learn parrot fashion but were encouraging individual experimentation to find out what worked for them. The teachers had a method that worked for themselves but everybody does things a bit different. Those that experimented, practiced and inquired did well in my class, those that didn't had to take up basket weaving presumably.
For me, working with experienced pressure welders really opened my eyes to more possibilities because these guys worked out all the issues when Noah was a boy and were willing to share some tips.
If you don't have access to people like this means you should look elsewhere. Asking the senior student was a great idea, keep doing it. Find others and see how they do it. Ask to watch over their shoulder when appropriate. Watch all Joy's videos over, they are a wealth of knowledge but as he said at least once, pay attention. He says everything but does not spoon feed, if you don't pay attention you will miss detail.
Search the internet for videos, also the Miller and Lincoln sites are good resources.
Practice. Do you have your own power source at home? If not get one and some scrap out of the school dumpster. Arc time fixes many things.
Finally, there are many amazing people in this forum that are willing to help as well given enough information, photos etc.
Let us know how you get on.

[theglassshroom]

I always go around asking everyone's opinion because it seems the only way to collect information. With every person comes something I may have neglected to consider, and certainly offers more than my instructor. As far as a source and a welder, once I get the money, I'm definitely going to get on that. If I had my way, I'd be running beads all day on Saturday and Sunday.

[Superiorwelding]

Tonight he had us walking the cup 3g, and my welds were big and gnarly, and his reply was, "just practice." I argued that practice makes permanent, not perfect. Practicing improper technique only yields improper technique engrained into muscle memory. He once again debated this. .

I see your point on practice makes permanent, however I also agree with coldman, My first instructor made me learn a lot on my own. At the time it sometimes aggravated me but looking back I am glad he taught me that way. When I would ask a question he would look at me and say "I don't know, what do you think?" He was pushing me to learn and experiment. He later went on to hire me and I worked for him for a while. I agree that you do not want to practice the wrong technique for muscle memory but I cant fault your teacher for pushing you to experiment.