[Buggy Chief]

I am a hobbyist and been working on getting better at TIG welding aluminum.

With that, I bought a full tank of Argon a couple of weeks back and set the flow to about 15 cfm and it read 2000 psi full. It reads 1000 psi now.

The arc sputters and jumps even at high frequency AC like it is contaminated. Could I be out of Argon even though it reads 1000 psi?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[Buggy Chief]

Nevermind...Pressure doesn't tell the story. It's weight. I have a 80 bottle and it should weigh about 60 lbs full and it is weighing about 50 now, which means empty. Empty bottle weight is 50ish.

Answered my own question.quote="Buggy Chief"]I am a hobbyist and been working on getting better at TIG welding aluminum.

With that, I bought a full tank of Argon a couple of weeks back and set the flow to about 15 cfm and it read 2000 psi full. It reads 1000 psi now.

The arc sputters and jumps even at high frequency AC like it is contaminated. Could I be out of Argon even though it reads 1000 psi?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.[/quote]

[MinnesotaDave]

Argon bottles are not filled by weight.

You are completely incorrect.

If you have a small bottle of argon, it is likely an 80 cubic foot bottle.

At 20cfh flow, it would last approximately 4 hours (actually less due to post flow and the surge on starting each arc).

If it was full at 2000psi, at 1000psi it has approx 40 cubic feet left in it.

[Otto Nobedder]

The test is simple... Close the bottle valve, loosen the fitting at the regulator to vent the gas in the line, and read the guage. If the gauge says 1000, that's your "empty", and the gauge is in error. If it says "zero", and returns to 1000 when you (re-tighten the fitting and) open the bottle, you still have lots of gas.

Assuming you still have gas, contamination or line leakage are possible causes.

Report back when you're sure about your quantity of gas, and we'll take it from there.

Steve s

[noddybrian]

I've mentioned this style flow gauge before in other posts - but below is an example of the gauge I tell people to get as I think it solves alot of guess work - it's on Ebay for around £10 & most LWS can get them even if their not in stock - seems like a cheap way to identify or eliminate gas issues for people that can't set flow "by ear" ! just stand it on the shroud - works with Mig & Tig & you see at a glance what's going on - so if you have no gas flow / flow tails off / gas present but nowhere near the flow rate set at the regulator you should be able to figure out the problem - if your machine is welding correctly why not get into the habit of listening to the gas flow & get used to what different CFH's sound like - then you can check flow easily even if the regulator is'nt accurate or reading correctly - " old school" welders never had the luxury of calibrated readings or even written guide settings - they just had to use their best judgement !

[Buggy Chief]

Thanks for the help. I am going to try this and report back.

The test is simple... Close the bottle valve, loosen the fitting at the regulator to vent the gas in the line, and read the guage. If the gauge says 1000, that's your "empty", and the gauge is in error. If it says "zero", and returns to 1000 when you (re-tighten the fitting and) open the bottle, you still have lots of gas.

Assuming you still have gas, contamination or line leakage are possible causes.

Report back when you're sure about your quantity of gas, and we'll take it from there.

Steve s

[Buggy Chief]

Well I did you test and the regulator went to 0 from 1000 when I loosened th I guess I have contamination coming from somewhere else then. I have quick connects on mine lines, so I can change out for my plasma cutter. wonder if this could be causing it. Never had a problem in the past and this bottle has been ok up until now.

Wonder if I could have bad gas or moisture got in tank somehow? I am puzzled on this one since it appears that I have gas based on the test.

The test is simple... Close the bottle valve, loosen the fitting at the regulator to vent the gas in the line, and read the guage. If the gauge says 1000, that's your "empty", and the gauge is in error. If it says "zero", and returns to 1000 when you (re-tighten the fitting and) open the bottle, you still have lots of gas.

Assuming you still have gas, contamination or line leakage are possible causes.

Report back when you're sure about your quantity of gas, and we'll take it from there.

Steve s

[Otto Nobedder]

You obviously have gas at the torch, or you would have smoked your tungsten. This was actually obvious in your first post, but confirming the guage ruled out a "low", almost empty bottle, so I didn't mention it.

A leakage test is done by removing your torch consumables, plugging up the torch (two pieces of rubber and a pair of vise-grips?), pressurizing the system, and using soapy water on all fittings first, then the entire length of the hose, and last, at the end of the torch barrel to rule out leakage at the torch head itself. At the end of the test, there should still be pressure when you open the vice-grips on the torch. If not, you may have missed something...

If the leakage test is good, you need a flow test at the torch, to make sure there are no restrictions limiting the flow. noddybrian's flowmeter is perfect, but for a quick test, put the torch head in a glass of water, trigger it, and look for a burst of bubbles at first, followed by a steady stream (assuming you have post-flow, or can keep the torch triggered).

Issues after that include contaminated gas (If it's been good up to now, but worsening as bottle pressure drops, it's likely moisture), and then odd things one rarely sees, like comtaminated tungsten, or conductive fluid, like automotive anti-freeze, in a water-cooled torch (usually an "HFAC only" problem).

Steve S

[Otto Nobedder]

Actually, I never asked what machine you're using, and if your argon is controlled at the machine, or a manual valve on the torch...

Steve S

[Buggy Chief]

Great advice guys. Thanks for your help. I will try in the am..

[Buggy Chief]

Everlast PP205 with foot pedal. Argon is regulated at regulator.

Actually, I never asked what machine you're using, and if your argon is controlled at the machine, or a manual valve on the torch...

Steve S

[Otto Nobedder]

I should have said "valved" at the machine, versus a manual valve at the torch... rather than saying "controlled" at the machine.

My bad.

Your machine has a solenoid that turns the gas flow on and off. Simpler setups actually have a manual valve on the torch to control gas flow.

Steve S

[Otto Nobedder]

I will add, if you read through the threads, you'll be STUNNED at how many times an aluminum welding issue was caused by contaminated gas.

Braehill (Len Braehill, a plant operator for Air Products) explained it beautifully. A bottle is supposed to be evacuated completely before refilling, to eliminate moisture. This does not alway happen at your local weld supply in hurry-up mode with low-wage gas-jerks working the machines.

Steve S

[MinnesotaDave]

I've mentioned this style flow gauge before in other posts - but below is an example of the gauge I tell people to get as I think it solves alot of guess work - it's on Ebay for around £10 & most LWS can get them even if their not in stock - seems like a cheap way to identify or eliminate gas issues for people that can't set flow "by ear" ! just stand it on the shroud - works with Mig & Tig & you see at a glance what's going on - so if you have no gas flow / flow tails off / gas present but nowhere near the flow rate set at the regulator you should be able to figure out the problem - if your machine is welding correctly why not get into the habit of listening to the gas flow & get used to what different CFH's sound like - then you can check flow easily even if the regulator is'nt accurate or reading correctly - " old school" welders never had the luxury of calibrated readings or even written guide settings - they just had to use their best judgement !

I use one too. I check at the torch at the beginning of each day I tig and compare it to the flow meter.

I also spot check my mig often.

I bring it when I use other people's welders as well.

[AKweldshop]

looks like a great tool, thanks, noddy, for sharing

[noddybrian]

Having read the post again & realized you did'nt mention black tungsten so must be getting gas & you've now confirmed tank contents I think it worth mentioning that many multi-process machines suffer a problem where they share the same torch connection / gas solonoid valve & gas input for plasma & Tig - having "dirty" compressed air go through the machine can if unlucky leave a significant water / oil contamination through the machine that does not affect the plasma function much - but plays havoc with the Tig function - giving similar symptoms as bad gas - maybe worth a look - I recently looked at a machine for a friend & ended up pumping IPA through it to clean out the valve & pipes - as soon as the warranty expires I will add a S.P.D.T to switch between it's original gas valve & add a second one & a second wired in parallel torch fitting on the front so both torches can be left connected & air / gas remain separate .

After swapping functions enough times the connections themselves can wear & create gas leaks.

Just a few thoughts - hope it helps.

[WerkSpace]

Excellent idea. I might do this to my PP205.

Having read the post again & realized you did'nt mention black tungsten so must be getting gas & you've now confirmed tank contents I think it worth mentioning that many multi-process machines suffer a problem where they share the same torch connection / gas solonoid valve & gas input for plasma & Tig - having "dirty" compressed air go through the machine can if unlucky leave a significant water / oil contamination through the machine that does not affect the plasma function much - but plays havoc with the Tig function - giving similar symptoms as bad gas - maybe worth a look - I recently looked at a machine for a friend & ended up pumping IPA through it to clean out the valve & pipes - as soon as the warranty expires I will add a S.P.D.T to switch between it's original gas valve & add a second one & a second wired in parallel torch fitting on the front so both torches can be left connected & air / gas remain separate .

After swapping functions enough times the connections themselves can wear & create gas leaks.

Just a few thoughts - hope it helps.

[WerkSpace]

My PP205 came with this gauge. (for calibrating the flow rate of the plasma torch.)

I've mentioned this style flow gauge before in other posts - but below is an example of the gauge I tell people to get as I think it solves alot of guess work - it's on Ebay for around £10 & most LWS can get them even if their not in stock - seems like a cheap way to identify or eliminate gas issues for people that can't set flow "by ear" ! just stand it on the shroud - works with Mig & Tig & you see at a glance what's going on - so if you have no gas flow / flow tails off / gas present but nowhere near the flow rate set at the regulator you should be able to figure out the problem - if your machine is welding correctly why not get into the habit of listening to the gas flow & get used to what different CFH's sound like - then you can check flow easily even if the regulator is'nt accurate or reading correctly - " old school" welders never had the luxury of calibrated readings or even written guide settings - they just had to use their best judgement !

[Buggy Chief]

You are correct, My tungsten is not black and seems fine. I ordered a tester for flow at the torch per the forum's recommendation. As far as multifunction machine, I see how this could happen. I have a desiccant filter on my plasma set up to hopefully mitigate moisture when using the Plasma. I am going to take my bottle back and get a new bottle of argon and see. My bottle is apparently 1/2 empty and it has been terrible humid here with all of the rain, and moisture could have gotten in the bottle (at least that is what I am hoping).

If I have moisture in my machine, not quiet sure how you cleaned out the valves and pipes. What is IPA?

Having read the post again & realized you did'nt mention black tungsten so must be getting gas & you've now confirmed tank contents I think it worth mentioning that many multi-process machines suffer a problem where they share the same torch connection / gas solonoid valve & gas input for plasma & Tig - having "dirty" compressed air go through the machine can if unlucky leave a significant water / oil contamination through the machine that does not affect the plasma function much - but plays havoc with the Tig function - giving similar symptoms as bad gas - maybe worth a look - I recently looked at a machine for a friend & ended up pumping IPA through it to clean out the valve & pipes - as soon as the warranty expires I will add a S.P.D.T to switch between it's original gas valve & add a second one & a second wired in parallel torch fitting on the front so both torches can be left connected & air / gas remain separate .

After swapping functions enough times the connections themselves can wear & create gas leaks.

Just a few thoughts - hope it helps.

[MinnesotaDave]

Buggy Chief, so with 1000 psi of pressure trying to force Argon out of the bottle...you figure moisture somehow worked its way in due to humidity???

[Buggy Chief]

I have no idea, I feel the same way! Water can find it's way into anything. I am going to try and get a new bottle tomorrow and we'll see.

Buggy Chief, so with 1000 psi of pressure trying to force Argon out of the bottle...you figure moisture somehow worked its way in due to humidity???

[Otto Nobedder]

IPA is Isopropyl alcohol.

It will degrease and dry the lines.

I had not thought of the multiprocess connection. Moisture and/or oil in the lines can plya havoc with TIG, so this is a real possibility.

Steve S

[Buggy Chief]

Can you explain how this is accomplished? Thanks again.

IPA is Isopropyl alcohol.

It will degrease and dry the lines.

I had not thought of the multiprocess connection. Moisture and/or oil in the lines can plya havoc with TIG, so this is a real possibility.

Steve S

[MinnesotaDave]

I have no idea, I feel the same way! Water can find it's way into anything. I am going to try and get a new bottle tomorrow and we'll see.

Buggy Chief, so with 1000 psi of pressure trying to force Argon out of the bottle...you figure moisture somehow worked its way in due to humidity???

Rest assured your bottle did not absorb moisture from the rain nor humidity.

[nova_70_383]

dont rule out bad gas... i have got 4 bad tanks now... very frustrating... seem to work fine at first untill you get to a certain pressure then the crap hits the fan.