[TurboTerror]

First I would like to apologize if this has been covered but I did search and everything I can across was just telling people to get the 240 machine and pony up and get 240 service installed but as you will see that’s not an option for me.

I have settled on getting an everlast power pro as I like the ac/dc tig/stick/plasma features as I plan on welding a good bit of both steel and aluminum. However I’m hung up on deciding between getting the dual voltage 164si or a strictly 240v 256Si. The issue is I am currently active duty and live in military housing which has a detached garage and modifying the wiring at the property in any way is strictly prohibited (already talked to housing). So my only option for 240v is to run a 50’ extension cord from the dryer plug to the garage. Or use the 120v that’s already in the garage.

I am new to welding but I have built and modified cars in my spare time for coming up on 20 years. I am finally tired of buying swap mounts and turbo/intercooler kits, as well as paying someone every time I need a fitting welded on to something. Hell I could have bought 2 or 3 220 Miller multimatic machines at this point just in money I’ve spent buying those parts. But I digress For the most part I will be welding exhaust/inter cooler pipe and brackets (for things like rear diff mounts when swapping rear ends) honestly can’t imagine ever needing to weld up more than 1/4” plate but idk if 100amps (which is all the 164 can do on 120v) could even do that (I’m new and I don’t know what to dooooo!) I’ve been hung up on this decision for weeks now so any insight would be helpful.

[cj737]

You’ll find the need for more than 100 amps when welding aluminum. I’d definitely get the dual voltage unit.

[TurboTerror]

You’ll find the need for more than 100 amps when welding aluminum. I’d definitely get the dual voltage unit.

I guess what I’m saying is if I’m going to need more than 100amps to weld what I want most of the time then I might as well buy the 240v machine as either way I would be needing to run an extension cord. If I can do 90% of what I need with 100amps or less the the DV machine makes the most sense as I may never need to use it at 240v anyway.

[LtBadd]

What are your long term plans as far as remaining at your current living situation, will you be moving to a place where you'd have 240 in an attached garage?

[TurboTerror]

What are your long term plans as far as remaining at your current living situation, will you be moving to a place where you'd have 240 in an attached garage?

I will be in this house for at least the next 3 years and depending on orders I could be here up to 6 years. I’m stationed in Ventura CA and the cost of housing is outrageous so moving out of base housing is not really an option if I want my house to have both a/c and a garage.

[Oscar]

Get the extension cord. You will be miserable when you find out what little damage 100A of welding power will do (hardly anything, especially on aluminum which won't even laugh at 100A because it will still be asleep when you try to tickle it with that little power, lol).

[VA-Sawyer]

The big down side of the extension cord will be the cost. I think you said it would come from the dryer plug. I will assume it is a 30 amp circuit. Probably wired with #10 wire from the breaker to the plug. You are going to add 100 ft of wire to the circuit.(50 feet down, and 50 ft back).
If the welder pulls anything close to 30 amps, you need to be concerned with voltage drop. You may need to go with #8 ,or maybe even #6 ,wire to avoid problems.

[BillE.Dee]

Turbo man,,,,THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE. Go talk to an electrical supply outift and tell them what you want to get done. I will imagine they will advise SA cable or range cable and you can build your own. Why don't you plan on the bigger machine and you won't have to cry the second time for the expense. You might have to get a bigger breaker too. Just make sure you take in the cable after each use before the mower goes thru.

[Oscar]

8 gauge would be sufficient for this purpose, 6 would be overkill which is not a bad thing. I build my own extensions, and they should last a lifetime.

I built this one a few years ago, and it still rocks!

100ft, quadruple 6 gauge (I could have used a slightly smaller gauge for the ground, but I already had the 6 gauge). Both hots and neutral are oversized 6 gauge (16mm² vs 13.3mm²). A good 60lbs in weight. Both 120V & 240V active when connected to my generator.


Disabling the neutral wire, I can also use it as a 100ft, 240V-only extension with the pigtail I made for it.



This is my newest creation. Triple oversized 4-gauge (23mm²) + 8 gauge ground. 80 ft length. About 60 lbs as well. I might make it longer if I need to later. Ran out of that expandable sleeve, so I'm waiting on that.


It will be going into what I call the Texas Power Strip. Go big or go home.

[BillE.Dee]

Hello Oscar.....where did you pick up the power for the 120 4 way? Is it just a hot and ground from the dryer plug or is it separate all the way thru? I want to run a small circuit on the welding cart for a tig button.

[Oscar]

Hello Oscar.....where did you pick up the power for the 120 4 way? Is it just a hot and ground from the dryer plug or is it separate all the way thru? I want to run a small circuit on the welding cart for a tig button.

In both cases, there are 4 separate wires as mentioned (notice "Quadruple" and such) . the 120 comes from one of the two hots, and the neutral, just like it would from the breaker box. I run my own wiring in order to be able to accomplish this. You cannot/should not do it (safely) through a dryer plug that does not have a neutral on it. Using the ground to get 120V is unsafe because then it becomes a load carrying wire when you use the 120V item, which it should not be unless there is a momentary fault/short circuit.

But don't let my cords stop you from wiring a tig button. If yours is anything like mine, the wall-wart power adapter might be able to run on 240V (look at the fine print on it with a magnifier if need be).

[Simclardy]

One point on the 3 wire dryer outlet. The Ground is a current carrying conductor for the dryer motor. It is an exception from article 250.140 NFPA70. The exception is obviously not for welders, but I would not worry about it.
I never use the dryer outlet because I run my cord right to a breaker when I'm on a job site. I carry most breakers as a master electrician or I steal one. Don't mess with a panel unless you know what you are doing because she will bite.
I use 6/3 SOOW for my cord. 8 gauge would be fine for the welder you are in the market for. 8 gauge SOOW is good for 40 amps. your I/eff will probably be around 25amps.

Sorry, point two; I would not get the everlast plasma/tig/stick welder. Unless they changed it from 5 years ago the plasma is next to useless. you can't touch the tip to the work piece and it just did not work for me. I ended up getting a Hypotherm and the difference is night and day. I would rather have my 7" Metabo grinder than the everlast plasma any day. I did learn on an everlast 250ex so I am not bashing them. I still own the 250ex and it has served me well (she was just retired).

[Simclardy]

This is my newest creation. Triple oversized 4-gauge (23mm²) + 8 gauge ground. 80 ft length. About 60 lbs as well. I might make it longer if I need to later. Ran out of that expandable sleeve, so I'm waiting on that.

That looks like tri-plex with a thhn added? careful dragging that around, the insulation is not made for that. You know that already based on the fact that you are adding the sleeve. I'm all for using what you have and reducing waste so I'm not hating.
Just surprised, you seem to spare no expense on your welding toys:)
cheers

[Oscar]

One point on the 3 wire dryer outlet. The Ground is a current carrying conductor for the dryer motor. It is an exception from article 250.140 NFPA70. .

My bad, I did not know that about the dryer motor! Then isn't that wire coming from the neutral buss if it provides current to the motor using one of the hots?

[Simclardy]

[quote/]

My bad, I did not know that about the dryer motor! Then isn't that wire coming from the neutral buss if it provides current to the motor using one of the hots?[/quote]

Correct. The exception stipulates that the 3 wire must originate from the main service equipment for this reason. You would not want to come out of a sub panel where the bare dryer wire could touch the equipment ground and conduct current. In a sub panel the equipment ground bar and neutral ground bar are isolated from each other. In the main panel they are bonded together.

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[Oscar]

[quote/]

My bad, I did not know that about the dryer motor! Then isn't that wire coming from the neutral buss if it provides current to the motor using one of the hots?

Correct. The exception stipulates that the 3 wire must originate from the main service equipment for this reason. You would not want to come out of a sub panel where the bare dryer wire could touch the equipment ground and conduct current. In a sub panel the equipment ground bar and neutral ground bar are isolated from each other. In the main panel they are bonded together.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk[/quote]

Thank you VERY MUCH! That is an eye-open'er because this house that I just moved into has the 3-wire dryer outlet getting it's power/neutral from the sub-panel in the garage (that's where the breaker is) and not the main service entrance on the outside of the house! I'm gonna need to look at that!

To answer your question about the wire I use, I use EB-Flex welding cable from Electron Beam for the two hots/neutral (105°C jacket, rated up to 600V), and yes thhn for the ground. I know it's not intended for what I'm using it for, but the 6/4 extension works just fine and has for about 4 years now (well a little over 3 years), and it's just for me, so the other one will be fine too.

[Simclardy]

[quote/]
and not the main service entrance on the outside of the house!
[/quote]

Is there a breaker outside? or just the meter socket and service entrance conductors? The first breaker is your main disconnect and this is where grounds and neutrals must be bonded.

Feel free to message me with photos.

Cheers



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[EngineerIsWelding]

Lots of good information and perspective here. Maybe I can contribute a little with some voltage drop and resistance numbers for extension cords. The Everlast 256SI draws a max inrush of 40 amps and a max effective of 32 amps, so I'll use those figures to calculate voltage drop. Impedance numbers are from https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

If you make or buy an 8 gauge cord of 50 foot length, the resistance is 0.0314 ohms. Voltage drop (V = I x R) for the inrush peak will therefore be 1.26 volts. Voltage drop for the max effective current will be 1.00 volts. I'm not adding any voltage drop for the plug or receptacle, but I don't think this extension cord is going to give you voltage drop problems.

If you want to go cheaper (with all appropriate caveats on durability and handling care and quality of workmanship), I think about the least expensive solution would be to buy the plug and receptacle and a pair of 50 foot, 12 gauge extension cords. Cut off the ends and use the cords. Such a pair currently runs $40 at Costco. When you parallel the two cords you get one 50-footer that's effectively 9 gauge. As a general rule, doubling the cross section of a conductor drops the gauge by 3, so two 12 gauge wires in parallel are equivalent to a single 9 gauge. It depends only on conductor cross section; skin effect is negligible at 60 Hz.

50 feet of 9 gauge has a resistance of 0.0396 ohms. So voltage drop for max inrush is 1.6 volts and for max effective current the drop is 1.27 volts. Likely the voltage at your house varies by more than this during the day, so I don't think you'll notice a line voltage that will be within a volt of normal for most welder settings.

Of course you won't have the quality or durability of solutions such as Oscar's. As for me, my welder's peak inrush is only 31 amps but I still used 6 gauge to wire a 40 foot pigtail to a 40 amp breaker. I practice more conservatively than I preach, but I plan to make the cheap 9 gauge 50-footer just for the heck of it.

[Simclardy]

Thanks for the voltage drop info.
The only correction is the resistance was calculated at 50' and i think you intended 100'. 50' on leg one and 50' on leg two.
So double your numbers and the #8 is still good.

I am not sure how the dynasty manages the power source but it might compensate? Anyone know.
Cheers

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[Oscar]

[quote/]

and not the main service entrance on the outside of the house!

Is there a breaker outside? or just the meter socket and service entrance conductors? The first breaker is your main disconnect and this is where grounds and neutrals must be bonded.

Feel free to message me with photos.

Cheers



Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk[/quote]


10-4 will do! Thanks.

[Bill Beauregard]

I try hard to discourage the use of dryer receptacles. They should have a neutral, in some cases they don't have an equipment ground. The dryer is plugged in, so you have to move the dryer to get to them. Dryer receptacles aren't meant for frequent unplugging, they might be damaged by the awkward place they are usually located, and the prying you may do getting them switched. They are not Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Protected. And you are sure to drag them through a door or window. Lawn mowers, weed eaters, and cars are NOT compatible with cords.

That speech made, If you are going to do it anyway, I prefer manufactured cords. I'd use two shorter cords as they are easier to roll & store. I'd go #8/3.

Don't assume the garage has enough power for the 120 volt unit. All 120 Volt welders I have seen require a dedicated 20 amp outlet. Detached garages intended for storage aren't likely to be equipped with a dedicated 20 amp circuit. If you opt to run heavy loads on a non exclusive circuit, you will experience breaker tripping. You run the risk of burning off a connection somewhere in the circuit, maybe catastrophic. I see it when carpenters plug a saw, and compressor into a general use outlet. Next thing I get a call; "There's something wrong with the outlet!". I waste a lot of time finding the burned off connection, and running a couple circuits they can function with.

[Bill Beauregard]

Code has evolved over the years. Not many years ago a dryer originating from service equipment, (the enclosure with the service disconnect), it could be supplied with three conductors. The third conductor could serve as both Neutral ("grounded"), and "grounding". Lots of installations were wrong, and some problems, even deaths were the result.

Recent code requires four conductors be used, and "Grounding" & "Grounded" be separated.

You also need GFCI protection for outdoor or garage use.

[Poland308]

Code has evolved over the years. Not many years ago a dryer originating from service equipment, (the enclosure with the service disconnect), it could be supplied with three conductors. The third conductor could serve as both Neutral ("grounded"), and "grounding". Lots of installations were wrong, and some problems, even deaths were the result.

Recent code requires four conductors be used, and "Grounding" & "Grounded" be separated.

You also need GFCI protection for outdoor or garage use.

Yup
Welders have there own section in the electrical code for a reason. Point to note the electrical code in the US is strictly about fire prevention. Can it work other ways? Yes. How long will it work with out catastrophic failure? Good luck!

[Simclardy]

Recent code requires four conductors be used, and "Grounding" & "Grounded" be separated.

You also need GFCI protection for outdoor or garage use.

The code started requiring 4 wire cables in 1996. However the most recent code 2017 still allows existing installations as per 250.140.
The danger comes from not bonding the frame to the grounded conductor not from sharing the equipment ground and grounded conductor. One might argue that it is safer because the dryer would stop working if the ground failed, alerting you to a problem, where the 4 wire system could lose the equipment ground and continue to work without protection.

To be clear, i am talking about dryers and ranges.

Now a welder only requires 3 conductors for single phase. So you don't use a neutral. All you need is an equipment ground and 2 hots.
Using a dryer receptacle temporarily is no big deal (my opinion) provided you don't exceed the amperage capacity of the wire.

I respect electricity as it can kill you quick. I am not making light of any of the risks associated.
Cheers






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[Bill Beauregard]

Code has evolved over the years. Not many years ago a dryer originating from service equipment, (the enclosure with the service disconnect), it could be supplied with three conductors. The third conductor could serve as both Neutral ("grounded"), and "grounding". Lots of installations were wrong, and some problems, even deaths were the result.

Recent code requires four conductors be used, and "Grounding" & "Grounded" be separated.

You also need GFCI protection for outdoor or garage use.

Yup
Welders have there own section in the electrical code for a reason. Point to note the electrical code in the US is strictly about fire prevention. Can it work other ways? Yes. How long will it work with out catastrophic failure? Good luck!

While there is a section for welders, only the exceptions relieve you of the requirements elsewhere in code. All other code requirements apply unless a specific exemption. One significant item: Everywhere else in code a 20 amp outlet must be provided with a 20 amp circuit. A 15 amp single outlet must not be a dedicated circuit on a 20 amp breaker, regardless the supply conductors. It is generally accepted that a 50 amp welder outlet can be supplied by whatever you choose. I'm uncomfortable with this practice. People buy little welders, then upgrade. There is a risk of overloading the circuit, with the allowed big breaker not providing protection.