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Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:17 pm
by agdodge4x4
I'm brand new to this, but I consider myself well above average in ability. I'm having an absolute beast of a time trying to get my AC225-S to strike an arc. I spent the better part of last night reading and watching videos so I could implement them today. This morning I spent about 4 hours and managed to squeak out about 12" worth of really spotty crappy welds. I spent lunch watching more videos and verifying that my technique it right. It is. I've tried striking the match and just tapping. No matter which one I go, the rod STICKS. IMMEDIATELY. There is no dragging it. When the welder is off, I can accomplish the distance with my eyes closed now. But with the welder on...it sticks...every single time...immediately regardless of which technique I use.
I am welding on clean 1/8" steel, 6011 rods. I've tried 1/8" and 3/32, 75A-120A or so and everywhere my machine will go in between. Absolutely no difference whatsoever. Same exact result. Even if you drag it across the work piece in a 12" line it will grab and stick....I would have though with 125A the arc would just kind of appear when I got close...but it doesnt...and I can't get it to do much more than spark and stick.
I know there is a practice required here, but i would have guessed after an entire day of trying that a suitable arc would have been struck by now. I'm completely lost and frustrated.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:37 pm
by agdodge4x4
I went ahead and cleaned my work pieces like crazy just to make certain everything was clean. I'm down to bare metal now. The arc just won't start. I have two machines, so I went ahead and fired up the other one just in case the one I was using was dead. Anyway, same result. So...back to completely baffled. I tried again today for about an hour. Never got the arc to really take off. Sticks.
Most of the videos I watch have a nice beautiful crackling sound with ample molten material emitting from where your welding. Mine, if I can get an arc struck looks nothing like that and the rod just kinda gets a hot blob on the end until it falls off onto the work piece. Getting close enough to where that doesn't happen will put the arc out.
Like I said...totally confused and lost here.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:58 pm
by Oscar
Couple questions: have you ever been able to strike an arc and weld with that machine?
What is the other machine? An identical tombstone that also won't light up? If so, have you ever gotten the 2nd one to work properly in the same exactly place that you are right now?
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:09 pm
by agdodge4x4
Oscar wrote:Couple questions: have you ever been able to strike an arc and weld with that machine?
What is the other machine? An identical tombstone that also won't light up? If so, have you ever gotten the 2nd one to work properly in the same exactly place that you are right now?
No. I have never used either machine. The one I am using is 40 years old, was purchased new by my father, used once by a friend that showed him how to use it, and then shut down and never touched again. There isn't much inside of this machine. The fan works when powered on. I don't expect it to have issues.
The other is a similar machine but a different brand. It's older. Never used it either, but considering my results are identical, I tend to think its incompetence of the user. :/
My machine is a Lincoln AC225-S, the Other is a PowerKraft that looks identical.
I did burn up a few sticks welding on thin material. I just tried to lay down a flat bead on flat metal. It worked, but not well. It takes minutes of attempts before I get it just right to strike.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:12 pm
by tweake
what brand/model welders do you have?
do you have any other electrodes? 6013 is generally fairly easy to start off with.
the issues that come to mind is that your welders may not have enough voltage to run 6011. that does happen a fair bit with inverter machines. but they should run fine with 6013.
do you have the leads around the right way? typically you want stinger on + and earth clamp on -.
any poor connections on the leads?
what is your mains power like? 110 or 240? whats the actual voltage at the plug? are you using a decent extension lead? get someone to check the lights are not dimming when you strike. you may need to measure voltage at the plug when striking.
if you have poor power supply, the welder holds enough power to strike but then runs out which causes it to stick.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:47 pm
by agdodge4x4
I'll have to check all of that. No complaints on dimming lights. This machine is bone stock. It's not been messed with since purchased. Anyway, I did manage to get an arc struck. I can get a reasonably half crappy looking weld when Im just laying down a bead. When I attempt to weld something at a right angle, the weld looks like crap. I can't get the metal into the corner. It does NOT lay a nice clean pretty weld. Its gloopy, globs, splatters...looks like someone took a stiff dump along it and then put clusters of grapes on top. HAHAHA....Not great. It's like the molten metal doesn't STICK to the work. It balls up and rolls off sometimes. I'm testing on metal purlin scrap. 2x4 pieces.
Anyway, the machine is a 240 machine and it is wired as such. Running at 130A on 6011 1/8 rod is a bit hot. 90A is a bit low....
Maybe I just need to burn up a bunch more sticks on a bunch more metal until I figure out how everything is supposed to work.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:53 pm
by Poland308
Does it have a polarity switch? Is it possible that your positive and neg cables are reversed.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:16 pm
by agdodge4x4
Poland308 wrote:Does it have a polarity switch? Is it possible that your positive and neg cables are reversed.
Nah. You get on/off and a dial for amperage.
All AC, all the time.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:47 pm
by tweake
agdodge4x4 wrote:I'll have to check all of that. No complaints on dimming lights. This machine is bone stock. It's not been messed with since purchased. Anyway, I did manage to get an arc struck. I can get a reasonably half crappy looking weld when Im just laying down a bead. When I attempt to weld something at a right angle, the weld looks like crap. I can't get the metal into the corner. It does NOT lay a nice clean pretty weld. Its gloopy, globs, splatters...looks like someone took a stiff dump along it and then put clusters of grapes on top. HAHAHA....Not great. It's like the molten metal doesn't STICK to the work. It balls up and rolls off sometimes. I'm testing on metal purlin scrap. 2x4 pieces.
Anyway, the machine is a 240 machine and it is wired as such. Running at 130A on 6011 1/8 rod is a bit hot. 90A is a bit low....
Maybe I just need to burn up a bunch more sticks on a bunch more metal until I figure out how everything is supposed to work.
it sounds like its low on power.
i don't know those machines but they sound like multi tap machines. might pay to check all the switch contacts for corrosion. it sounds like its got a high resistance connection somewhere. rare but not impossible both machines suffer the same problem especially if both have been stored in a damp garage.
otherwise i would suspect your home power. power plug, extension lead, cabling in wall (someone on here found their cable in the wall was undersized). even low voltage supplied to the house.
transformer machines are not that efficient so they chew a bit of power and need really good connections. good inverter machines can adjust to poor voltage, but transformer machines cannot.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:17 pm
by Oscar
Yup, sounds like a machine/power issue is what I was originally thinking.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:30 pm
by agdodge4x4
Im going to start with a new piece of steel and weld a few beads. Then I'll make an attempt at a fillet weld in a corner as if I were welding a brace or something. Then, against my better judgement, maybe I can put a photo up and see if it tells us anything. Would that be useful?
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:50 pm
by Oscar
agdodge4x4 wrote:Im going to start with a new piece of steel and weld a few beads. Then I'll make an attempt at a fillet weld in a corner as if I were welding a brace or something. Then, against my better judgement, maybe I can put a photo up and see if it tells us anything. Would that be useful?
More useful than anything that has transpired in this thread thus far. jk, but seriously pictures speak 1,000,000 words when it comes to welding, but accurate descriptions and full disclosure of everything go a long way when diagnosing a problem that could potentially be more than just weldor skill level.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:50 pm
by Olivero
I mean...
They call it stick welding for a reason
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:19 pm
by agdodge4x4
I dunno. This isnt exactly rocket science. I don't know how to test brand new wiring from a 200A panel to a 50A subpanel. I have two machines performing similarly, so we're still looking at electrical somehow. I don't have any picutres. I messed with it today for about an hour and just ended up with a bunch of burn marks on a piece of steel...never got an arc started. I know enough about electricity to know that with enough juice, you shouldnt need to touch metal to metal. It should...well...arc. I never got that to happen even up to 150A on 6011.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:10 pm
by tweake
you need voltage to arc. so if voltage is to low you will have problems.
whats the insides of the machines like?
whats the leads, earth clamp and stinger like?
the other thing is electrodes. to keep a arc going you need the flux to do its thing.
broken flux, rusted electrodes etc all cause problems.
are they new electrodes ?
got any other types?
whats the flux like at the tip? getting shipped off?
if its chipped you may need to grind the end down or drag it along the steel to burn off the steel down to the flux level.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:55 pm
by Simclardy
agdodge4x4 wrote: I know enough about electricity to know that with enough juice, you shouldnt need to touch metal to metal. It should...well...arc. I never got that to happen even up to 150A on 6011.
It takes 30,000 volts to jump an air gap of about 1 centimeter. Your welder might have an OCV of 80 volts. So you must establish an arc by touching metal to metal. Once you ionize the air you can maintain an arc with much less voltage.
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Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:24 pm
by agdodge4x4
Yall nailed it.
After deciding that I needed to check the wiring and start testing, I put the machine away. Upon unplugging the machine, I brushed the face plate of the outlet and received a little attention getting shock. I killed the power, disassembled the outlet and found that the previous electrician had used ALL BLACK wires and custom labeled them. Well, they were wrong. WHat happened was the ground and one of the hots got swapped on the plug. Meaning the grounding system was now electrified. It never shocked me in a month of fooling with this, but I've also always worn my dry steel toe electrical hazard rated boots.
Anyway, I rewired that and upon flipping the switch on my welder, the fan sounded like a jet. THATS what it should have sounded like originally.
I'll let you know how the results are now that the machine is using 240V and not 120V. I havent had time to use it.
Even though the machine is from the early 1980's, the internals look amazingly clean. It's literally been in the original box since new. ANyway, I polished the contactor and terminals and cleaned the fan up and put a little grease on it. The stinger and ground clamp are polished and clean and have no rust or corrosion on them. It should be good to go now.
/facepalm
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:32 pm
by Simclardy
Cool!
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Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:21 pm
by Oscar
agdodge4x4 wrote: I know enough about electricity to know that with enough juice, you shouldnt need to touch metal to metal.
yeaahhhh, it doesn't work like that, lol.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:12 am
by Lightning
agdodge4x4 wrote:I killed the power, disassembled the outlet and found that the previous electrician had used ALL BLACK wires and custom labeled them.
If it was a 240V outlet, it would have had two blacks -- both hot -- one from each leg of 120V. And a ground. Since the legs of 120V would be out of phase, the voltage across them would be 240V. White is neutral, but you don't have neutral in a 240V circuit (or welder).
agdodge4x4 wrote:WHat happened was the ground and one of the hots got swapped on the plug. Meaning the grounding system was now electrified.
Wait, WHAT???
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:44 pm
by Poland308
Not a uncommon. Three blk wires. Miss labeled. Yess you need a dedicated common for all 240v circuits serving complex equipment. Most if not all equipment (welders included) use one leg of the 240 to run a transformer to get a (low voltage) circuit for control power. This requires a common leg. Not just a ground. Does it need it to run? Maybe depending on application and equipment design. Or it might run fine. Maybe. Sometimes.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:58 pm
by agdodge4x4
Lightning wrote:agdodge4x4 wrote:I killed the power, disassembled the outlet and found that the previous electrician had used ALL BLACK wires and custom labeled them.
If it was a 240V outlet, it would have had two blacks -- both hot -- one from each leg of 120V. And a ground. Since the legs of 120V would be out of phase, the voltage across them would be 240V. White is neutral, but you don't have neutral in a 240V circuit (or welder).
agdodge4x4 wrote:WHat happened was the ground and one of the hots got swapped on the plug. Meaning the grounding system was now electrified.
Wait, WHAT???
I'll make this more clear. The welder was running on 120V and a hot 120V leg was stuck in the ground terminal, thereby electrfying the metallic faceplate and metal welder. This is why the NEC REQUIRES a ground wire to be BARE or GREEN SHEATHED....
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:24 pm
by Poland308
A 120 v hot leg connected to a ground terminal would be a dead short that would trip any breaker. Unless your ground was isolated from the plug body( posible if it was on a hot terminal internal to the plug) . But this would also require that there be no other ground connection from the box / plug housing to ground. If so then I’d have an electrician evaluate all your property. Just because it’s highly probable that the “electrician “ who formally did work at you site may have made similar mistakes that could burn down your buildings (at best) at worst your next shock might be fatal.
Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:24 pm
by Simclardy
Poland308 wrote:A 120 v hot leg connected to a ground terminal would be a dead short that would trip any breaker. Unless your ground was isolated from the plug body( posible if it was on a hot terminal internal to the plug) . But this would also require that there be no other ground connection from the box / plug housing to ground. If so then I’d have an electrician evaluate all your property. Just because it’s highly probable that the “electrician “ who formally did work at you site may have made similar mistakes that could burn down your buildings (at best) at worst your next shock might be fatal.
If the receptacle was piped with metal you would be correct but if it was pvc only the plug body and the frame of the welder would be energized and no path back to the transformer, so no short. As long as the welder was functioning properly their would be no connection between frame and operating circuit.
Who knows what the wiring looks like, but at face value sounds like he did not use the proper wire for the ground and mixed it up.
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Re: Strike arc...sticks EVERY time
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:18 pm
by Poland308
Simclardy wrote:Poland308 wrote:A 120 v hot leg connected to a ground terminal would be a dead short that would trip any breaker. Unless your ground was isolated from the plug body( posible if it was on a hot terminal internal to the plug) . But this would also require that there be no other ground connection from the box / plug housing to ground. If so then I’d have an electrician evaluate all your property. Just because it’s highly probable that the “electrician “ who formally did work at you site may have made similar mistakes that could burn down your buildings (at best) at worst your next shock might be fatal.
If the receptacle was piped with metal you would be correct but if it was pvc only the plug body and the frame of the welder would be energized and no path back to the transformer, so no short. As long as the welder was functioning properly their would be no connection between frame and operating circuit.
Who knows what the wiring looks like, but at face value sounds like he did not use the proper wire for the ground and mixed it up.
Read slowly because I typed drunken.
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