[WelderDan]

From what I've gathered, certain machines are better at running certain rods than other machines, even though a machine is capable of the amperage and polarity of the rod being used. Is it possible for an experienced welder to make good welds on a bad machine?

[tweake]

From what I've gathered, certain machines are better at running certain rods than other machines, even though a machine is capable of the amperage and polarity of the rod being used. Is it possible for an experienced welder to make good welds on a bad machine?

i think there is a few different aspects to this. the old adage of "a good tradesman doesn't blame his tools".

yes a good welder can adjust for a different machine.
however most experienced welders (and tradesmen in general) simple do not use bad tools. if its a bad machine get rid of it and go get a good one.

[Oscar]

define "good welds", and define "bad machine". It's all in the wording/interpretation. Let me guess: are you trying to run E6010 rods on a small/inexpensive stick welder?

[E T]

even though a machine is capable of the amperage and polarity of the rod being used.

It's not just the amperage and polarity that are important. Welding voltage plays a very big part as well, and the curve between amperage and welding voltage defines the arc characteristics.
Cellulose rods need different arc characteristics then low-hydrogen or rutile rods. Thats why an inverter that hasn't got a cellulose setting has trouble running 6010 rods well. The needed curve isn't programmed into the electronics.
An other thing is the OCV (open circuit voltage). You need high OCV to start certain rods. Rutile rods will start very easy at low OCV, but most low-hydrogen rods need 70V DC at least and cellulose rods even more (90-100V).

[Poland308]

An experienced welder may be able to make acceptable welds with an unreliable machine or one that’s questionable. But they will often qualify the results according to there confidence in it as it went.

[WelderDan]

define "good welds", and define "bad machine". It's all in the wording/interpretation. Let me guess: are you trying to run E6010 rods on a small/inexpensive stick welder?

I got a Sungoldpower Arc200 DC stick (inverter) welder a month ago and I've been practicing. I can run Lincoln 6013 3/32 rods pretty good -- the slag peels right off -- I love it.. Having trouble making fillet welds without slag inclusions though, with the 6013. I have some Hobart 6011 3/32 and had a hard time controlling the arc. Every 5 welds or so were acceptable (even ripples with some a little farther apart then others) but I never felt comfortable doing them. So today I ordered some Lincoln 6010 3/32 and some Forney 7014 3/32. I look forward to trying the 7014. We'll see how the 6010 goes -- I guess it's suppose to run easier on DC than 6011.

[WelderDan]

even though a machine is capable of the amperage and polarity of the rod being used.

It's not just the amperage and polarity that are important. Welding voltage plays a very big part as well, and the curve between amperage and welding voltage defines the arc characteristics.
Cellulose rods need different arc characteristics then low-hydrogen or rutile rods. Thats why an inverter that hasn't got a cellulose setting has trouble running 6010 rods well. The needed curve isn't programmed into the electronics.
An other thing is the OCV (open circuit voltage). You need high OCV to start certain rods. Rutile rods will start very easy at low OCV, but most low-hydrogen rods need 70V DC at least and cellulose rods even more (90-100V).

Thanks. Good info here. I'm going to try to enroll in a general welding class for Spring. I'm going to look into welding voltage more

[WelderDan]

I just checked the OCV on my Sungoldpower arc200 machine. It's 65 volts. I used my multi-meter

[tweake]

I got a Sungoldpower Arc200 DC stick (inverter) welder a month ago and I've been practicing. I can run Lincoln 6013 3/32 rods pretty good -- the slag peels right off -- I love it.. Having trouble making fillet welds without slag inclusions though, with the 6013. I have some Hobart 6011 3/32 and had a hard time controlling the arc. Every 5 welds or so we're acceptable (even ripples with some a little farther apart then others) but I never felt comfortable doing them. So today I ordered some Lincoln 6010 3/32 and some Forney 7014 3/32. I look forward to trying the 7014. We'll see how the 6010 goes -- I guess it's suppose to run easier on DC than 6011.

i doubt the 6010 will run on your machine which is typical for inverters.
some machines will not even run 6011, i have a couple like that.

the slag inclusion i suspect is rod angle. one of the things with 6013 is using the arc to blow back the slag, especially on the heavy slag rods. also having fast enough travel speed.
the good news is your checking and finding faults.

[tweake]

I just checked the OCV on my Sungoldpower arc200 machine. It's 65 volts. I used my multi-meter

don't worry about OCV on inverters to much. it doesn't mean much.
the problem i've run into is not starting the rod, its keeping it running. what matters is available welding voltage and OCV does not predict welding voltage with inverters.

[WelderDan]

Thanks Tweake.. I feel so much better now that I know my machine is partly to blame for not getting ideal welds with the 6011 and 6010. I've been running beads like crazy, evaluating over and over what I could be doing wrong. I guess I bought the bare minimum machine for welding. My next welder will include some of the extra goodies..

[tweake]

Thanks Tweake.. I feel so much better now that I know my machine is partly to blame for not getting ideal welds with the 6011 and 6010. I've been running beads like crazy, evaluating over and over what I could be doing wrong. I guess I bought the bare minimum machine for welding. My next welder will include some of the extra goodies..

you know its the machine when you hold a tight arc and keeps cutting out.
the rest is most likely you. hard thing is holding a tight arc as the rod is burning back.

also keep in mind cellulose rods are not everything. certainly handy at times but if you can't use them its not a big deal.

i recommend go watch the vids again, you will probably see far more 2nd/3rd/5th time around.
take note of the rod angle, travel speed and most importantly the puddle.

[WelderDan]

Thanks Tweake.. I feel so much better now that I know my machine is partly to blame for not getting ideal welds with the 6011 and 6010. I've been running beads like crazy, evaluating over and over what I could be doing wrong. I guess I bought the bare minimum machine for welding. My next welder will include some of the extra goodies..

you know its the machine when you hold a tight arc and keeps cutting out.
the rest is most likely you. hard thing is holding a tight arc as the rod is burning back.

also keep in mind cellulose rods are not everything. certainly handy at times but if you can't use them its not a big deal.

i recommend go watch the vids again, you will probably see far more 2nd/3rd/5th time around.
take note of the rod angle, travel speed and most importantly the puddle.

Yes that's exactly it. It feels like I have to push that rod in hard to keep it lit. I'm preoccupied with that when I could be concentrating more on the puddle and other things

[WelderDan]

So if I wanted to run 6010/6011 rods, I would need a machine that has an adjustable "arc force" ? My machine doesn't have that.

As predicted, the 6010 rods don't work good on my machine. 6011 seems to have a more stable arc, for whatever reason.

[Oscar]

Arc Force (sometimes called "Dig) is an amperage-compensation feature control. Higher arc force values cause an increase in current when the arc length is reduced (basically when the rod is shoved into the base-metal/puddle). This will not overcome the lack of running/welding voltage that is needed to run E6010 rods. Those need a very high running voltage to stay lit. 6011 is the AC variant of E6010, and it also fares better on DC+ as well, but the slag is tougher to remove and the arc isn't as "nice" as E6010. Can you return your machine? Might as well get a better one since you know you want one, lol. Right now HTP has Black Friday going on with $300 off the Inverarc 200TLP. It will do everything you want and then some-- Stick, TIG, Pulse Stick, Pulse TIG, foot pedal and hand amptrol available, 100V OCV and who knows how many volts while welding! Of course that is just my personal preference as there are lots of other capable machines.

Here is mine in the tote bag with extended 23ft lead/ground.


This is the 25ft slider amptrol for on-the-fly control of the amperage.

[WelderDan]

Disco on the 7014 I just got. It seems to be all about slag control...hehe Here's some practice shots. I didn't even clean the rust off some of these...am I in the club now..or do I need to be jumped in? ha

@Oscar...thx for recommendation on machine, and education

[tweake]

So if I wanted to run 6010/6011 rods, I would need a machine that has an adjustable "arc force" ? My machine doesn't have that.

As predicted, the 6010 rods don't work good on my machine. 6011 seems to have a more stable arc, for whatever reason.

some companies claim the "automatic arc force" makes it run 6010. however i suspect thats all marketing BS.
what i often see is "it will run cellulose rods" but that really means it will run 6011 not 6010.
all good brand inverter welders have a 6010 mode specially for 6010. i assume it simply bumps up the voltage.

[Oscar]

So if I wanted to run 6010/6011 rods, I would need a machine that has an adjustable "arc force" ? My machine doesn't have that.

As predicted, the 6010 rods don't work good on my machine. 6011 seems to have a more stable arc, for whatever reason.

some companies claim the "automatic arc force" makes it run 6010. however i suspect thats all marketing BS.
what i often see is "it will run cellulose rods" but that really means it will run 6011 not 6010.
all good brand inverter welders have a 6010 mode specially for 6010. i assume it simply bumps up the voltage.

My inverter stick welder on Cellulosic mode I can get a temporary increase in output, up to 500A for up to 60sec.



























Just kidding, that is the arc force setting, that I can increase to 500%, as opposed to the usual range of 0-200% in regular mode.

Although now I am curious to see if there is any voltage increase that is pre-programmed.

[Poland308]

If you have a machine that actually has arc force adjustment, then use it. I run about 30 to 100 on 6010. And 0 to 70 on 7018. Increasing it can help with burning through crap. The results of changing your arc force will often be most evident at the outer edges of your puddle. Too little and the edge may look cold. Too much and it will give you under cut.

[snoeproe]

So if I wanted to run 6010/6011 rods, I would need a machine that has an adjustable "arc force" ? My machine doesn't have that.

As predicted, the 6010 rods don't work good on my machine. 6011 seems to have a more stable arc, for whatever reason.

when your talking about today’s inverters, an arc control or arc force adjustment does help the ability for these machines to tune for cellulose electrodes.
My old idealarc 250 has no such adjustments. No hot Start, no arc force control. It doesn’t need those adjustments. It runs 6010 electrodes well with no issues.

[snoeproe]

So if I wanted to run 6010/6011 rods, I would need a machine that has an adjustable "arc force" ? My machine doesn't have that.

As predicted, the 6010 rods don't work good on my machine. 6011 seems to have a more stable arc, for whatever reason.

when your talking about today’s inverters, an arc control or arc force adjustment does help the ability for these machines to tune for cellulose electrodes.
My old idealarc 250 has no such adjustments. No hot Start, no arc force control. It doesn’t need those adjustments. It runs 6010 electrodes well with no issues.