[qwerty12]

what about plug welding...
wich welding type is beter to go straight butt or owerlap weld...run one spot and then run one inch no weld and than run one spot...


or to drill one inch between holes and then owerlap sheets and do a plug welds


what holds better

[Otto Nobedder]

Plug welding is not unlike the original spot-welds used in auto construction.

If you have the equipment to "lap" body panels, I'd absolutely do plug (rosette) welds to join them. You will have very little distortion in the metal, and it's more then strong enough for body panels. Just fill the joints with body fillers like the original manufacturer did. If you want high precision, "lead" them like the old-school body men.

Steve S

[qwerty12]

Did not quite understood abouth that "lead" and laping panels

[weldin mike 27]

I believe its lead, the metal lead, chem symbol Pb. Used in auto work for solder like joins.

Mick

[qwerty12]

Well was practising today a little bit...and it felt out just fine. Eaven got ya a litlle video to see me doing a weld

who d` fuck said arc welder is bad for sheet metal...well he was werry wrong
arc welder is the best thing on eart for sheet metal if you do not have any other welder

here is the video
http://youtu.be/-JUBVs-Q09M


I used 3.2mm (please sorry for my metric measures...god damn hypis here invented metric few milion years ago...and your units in inches yards feets and those funny number 2/123 4/12 3/16 unfortunaly does not means anything to me. I just hope that metric symbols mean something to you...elswhere if not we are not on the same radio wawe...so we cant listen to the Jimmy Hendri)
Wel...as I said...I used 3.2mm electrode....telwin nordica 4.181 AC welder...power here is 220 V 50-60Hz. I turned it Just slightly over 80 amps and it saw damn good.

Sheet metal...well...got an old sheet metal plate that was laying round the house for abouth 20 years originaly it was maybe 1mm...rust eroded it to 0.8mm
I did not grinded it at all...kinda like working that way...if I am able to get enought practise to do nice weld on 0.8mm old rusty sheet plate...whel than 1mm clean metal sheet and nice prepaired joint will be easy thing to me...


so I just driled few holes and started welding.

Weld where just nice. I filmed last sheet peace and one before that how I hammer those 2 peaces. Joint wont fall apart eawen If I hammer it so strong that sheet bends completly. Only one sheet peace(filmed) broke apart and that was not joint brake buth rather the metal around joint separated from brute hammer power I gave it
There is little burn trought most plates(must practise on that) buth whats most important 2 welded peaces hold like hell together


One werry funny thing I noticed on welding thin up to 1mm max metal shet...cutting heat can be done not only with amperage settings buth also with electrode diamether...for example...my machine is able to do from 55 to 160 amps. and I have 1.6mm 2mm 2.5 and 3.2 electrodes.



Most of folks would say...use 1.6 electrode and 55 amps because its just 0.8mm thin sheet plate.

Buth 55 amps seams to be quite enought to melt 1.6 rod and there is exesive heat left that burns holes in metal like in swiss chese...
if amperage turned just litle more high than 1.6 rod acts like some laser cutting tool.

On the other hand...I filmed this video with 3.2mm rod wich is not a common sense compared to 0.8sheet metal....buth funny thing is....3.2rod neads at least 95 to 120 amps to melt easy...and when i turned my muchine to 80 amps electrode melted realy hevy. Its not enought amperage to melt the rod quickly. So the big heat instead of driling a hole in sheet metal plate is waisted on the proces of rod melting.
You must hold realy tight arc gap between metal and the rod buth at the end it does not burns trought sheet(mostly) and weld looks just nice and video shows that it holds nice.

So funny thing on 0.8mm sheet metal...you got less burn trought with 3.2electrode and 80amps than with 1.6mm and 55 amps.






Sorry for the big text...hope you understood my bad english...

Anny coments, tips, critics, jokes, and enything else with or without welding tematics is greatly welcomed here by me...so type a few words please.



And I hope you like my video

[Otto Nobedder]

Hey, GOOD on ya!!!

Most of us know metric... You scoff at SAE units, but when you know them, they work.

Your reference to radio frequencies amused me. They're universally in cycles/second (Hz), NOT related to a ten-base unit like the metric system, but the only thing available until we measure time in a new way. (Convert cycles per second to cycles per minute, and you'll see what I mean.)

I'm thrilled you've found the solution, especially since you seem to have found it yourself.

Steve S

[qwerty12]

Here is some pictures of my rusted old car repair.
























Welded 1mm sheet using 2.5mm rods, abouth 80 85 amps currens. AC ofcourse Car panels are 0.8mm thin

Ower that I have put some anticorosive base paint and than fiber filer.


What do you say ?

[Otto Nobedder]

Looks like you got the job done!

A little filler, a little sanding, and it'll look like new.

Steve S

[qwerty12]

Thanks wery much on replay.

My welds are not jet nice...still needs lot of practise...buth I hope One day it will be good. One importatnt thing is that all those welds do work....they hold nice. I tried to hammer them of with 5kg hammer and they holded without problems.

one thing that constantly bothers me is poor fusion between car panel and welded metal peace. I do not know how to explain it to you buth the rod metal just goes on 2 sides. it melts one drop on the sheet metal and other drop goes on car panel. and there is no metal between that point.

Here is my picture and arows showing what I mean


arows with numero uno shows what I mean arows with numero due showing what seams to me a good weld.
And it is very hard to me to obtain to all welds to look like number 2. You all know the problem. If you lower the amperage rod sticks like hell. if you put more amps it burns trought panel and sheet metal. And if you hold even on small amps lot of time it bornt stought. on the other side if you hold too litle time there is no fusion between 2 sheets.


Please help me correct those mistakes...I do not know what metod to do to eliminate those erors.


Here is one picture i found today on web. its a pipe and sheet weld that has similar problems like those mine. Just notice the weld...rod material is all gone on 2 sides of welding plates and there is no filler metal between 2 welded plates...so there is no good fusion.
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/larphea ... a.jpg.html

how to correct this erors on thin sheet metal?

[Otto Nobedder]

The problem is, you're stuck with the most difficult way to do what you're doing. That makes your results rather impressive.

For control when stick-welding, your rod should be no thicker than the material you're welding, and should be thinner. And no one makes a .08mm stick-rod. If they did, it would be so flexible I'm not sure you could control it. That's why MIG is the usual process for what you're doing. The electrode can be as small as .58mm and run in short bursts controlled by a trigger.

All I can suggest is to use the thinnest stick-rod you can find, and keep practicing. Simply striking an arc with a 1.5mm rod requires more current than .08mm metal can take for more than an instant.

Steve S

[qwerty12]

Well I preaty much understand all things you spoke to me.
Backside od that story is that I live in a very poor country. For the simple egzample... one small hoby mig welder(30-160A 0.6 to 0.8 wire) costs same money amount as my old car+my arc welder. It is abouth the same equivalent as my 2 mounts salary.
And one MIG welder I could aford for 2 mount of hard work only in case that in those 2 mounts I do not eat and drink anything, do not pay taxes, do not pay electric and wather and phone and internet bils...

So a MIG welder is curently realy unaviable to me...

Must fight with this telwin welder until better days will come, and if they dont...will dye burning rods like old school welding gangsta



Talking abouth thinn rods... i can buy 1.6 2 2.5 3.2 4 5 mm rods here. and did tryed all of them. Problem is welding current. my welder goes from 160 to 55 amps. and on lower amperage it is much unstable. its realy hard to get arc going on 55 amps. althought i can manage that to.


simple thing is happening 55amps is way to much on 1.6 and 2mm rods. they do not stick and arc goes easy buth it brings way to much heat on metal.

beleave me or not...i do have less burntrought with 2.5mm rods and 80 to 85 amps than with 1.6 rods on 55 amps.


So...It is a in this moment only solution for me to use bigger rods like 2.5mm and 80 amps curent. that curent is just slighty enought to melt the rod buth not to much heat goes on sheet metal and it does not burns trought.


on the other hand using 55 amps and 1.6mm rods I just end with my sheet metal foll of holes like some swiss chese

[Otto Nobedder]

All I can say, is when you find something that works, keep doing it.

And what you've been doing seems to work. Not perfectly, but you take what you can get, right?

Practice will make you better, and with enough practice you might make the MIG guys look foolish.

Keep doing what you're doing, and you can only get better.

Steve S

[Braehill]

Qwerty12, One thing I can think of that might help you is if you can find an old piece of copper to hold behind where you are welding to stop the burn through. It would have to be fairly thick and I'm not sure how you can hold it there while you use a hand held shield.

Another thing that might help is try to weld to the other welds after they have been cleaned of the slag to fill in the holes as the weld should be thicker than the rusty panels. Weld in short strings of horizontal welds rather than trying to go up or downhill. 6013 rods are flat position only and will trap slag otherwise causing the holes within your welds.

Steve is right about you trying to weld car body panels with the worst possible combination of equipment that I can think of. The fact that you are getting anything welded together with the equiptment you are using is amazing to me. Most of us can only imagine working a month for $200 and not being able to buy something even if we have the money to do so.

We have a saying in the US, "If there's a will, there's a way". Keep trying and good luck.

Len

[qwerty12]

Big thanks to all.
Well i might find a piece of copper and try with it. Holding it with small clamps will be fine.

Welding on old weld is always a nice thing. Weld material tends to bi thicker and does not burntrought as it seams to be also stronger than a sheet metal. Only one thing there is not nice Must do kit if chuoing grinding and then welding and then again chiping and grinding. Buth what else man can do than a be patient one in those burning situations

For the 6013 rods...well you got me there. I thout that all 6011 and 6013 rods are ALL welding position, buth it seams that I was wrong.

Buth eather they are or not all position rods...must weld with them vertical horizontal and overhead. Its much easyer to fight with slag then to turn a car on its roof. Must then weld wrecked roof afther that

[Otto Nobedder]

I've welded all positions with 6013, and from what I've read, it's common in Australia in particular to weld pipe roots with 6013, where 6010 and 6011 are hard to find.

I don't LIKE to weld overhead with 6013, because of the spatter and slag dripping on me...

Steve S

[jwmacawful]

another solution utilizing a buzz box nobody mentioned is brazing with a carbon arc torch. this works on ultra light material better than shielded arc welding. there's even at least one video on you-tube called of all things,"brazing with a carbon arc torch". as my old oma use to say, there's more than one way to shuck an oyster.

[qwerty12]

Well I had a verry nasty and big hole at front of my rear wheel, on my old rusry beast
Well done much to fix it today. buth did not catched all the work on camera...damn rain fu*ked me all day. it rains and then it stops and sun shines, and than it rains again

Here are few pictures so you can see my buz box working it down...





















enjoy

[Braehill]

Qwerty12,

Looks like by the time you're finished it will be made of more 6013 rod than Opal. Who knows, maybe you can start a car manufacturing plant using just your buzz box and a lot of 6013 rods.

Len

[qwerty12]

well it may look so buth it does not consumes rods much...only few rods went on all that welding...and 1kg of them is 3.3 usd ant that is not expencive. when you weld thin sheeet with 2.5mm rod and 80 amps...you do it in a start and stop quickly motion so rods last long.



and talking abouth factory...well I only need some big garrage(do not have anny) and a container full of sheet metal and few boxes of rods...I could make you a car well maye it would took me a year or two buth I could make it somehow
just need someone to rent me his garage, give me some sheet metal and rods, and pay electrisity bills for my buzzzz box

[Braehill]

If we could all find that guy we would all be happy welders. Earlier when you said it rained then the sun shines and then rain again I thought we might be neighbors. Sounds a lot like Pittsburgh,Pennsylvania. Glad to see your welds are looking a little better.

Len

[qwerty12]

No I do not live in pensilvania, I live in a small land simillar to transilvania...only we here in bosnia do not have vampires


as for the weelds...welll i feal really bad because I cant make them better. are strong enought thats important. tested all with hammer. its easy to tear the sheet apart than to brokr the weld. buth i am still not satysfyed. they should look much much more better.
the problem is i realy do not know how else I could emprove them. seams like i have reached my own limit

[Braehill]

The only limits we have are the ones we put on ourself.

I'm not sure what all tools you have to use, but you need to clean the rust off as well as possible. Rust and paint are some of your worst enemies while trying to weld steel. The rust may seem to melt into the weld but it actually becomes porosity in the weld and needs to be removed beforehand. The coating on the rod will flux some of it out, but if you are melting the sheet metal into the weld, you are likely getting the rust from the back side of the panels into your welds.

It's hard to give you instructions on how to get good results on what most of us would consider an impossible task. If you think that there are welders out here welding rusty car panels with an A/C stick welder and 6013 rods and getting excellent results, you would be wrong. For what you are trying to do with what you have to work with you are doing just fine.
Len

[qwerty12]

Well...as a fella named Eric Cartman once said: "God dam hipys" this was a verry hard day. Yesterday I was working 3rh shift from 18h yesterday unthil 7h in the morning today. Gone home and slept till 9h. And than started working on my old rusty car. Few day ago a finished front parth of the car bot sides. and also a left side of back wheel. Today left back side was left...and it was one that was most rusty. And as a real gentleman...i have decided that hardest things must come last BEEN working from 9h today until 23:30h in the night. Done lot of grinding, cuting, sheet metal shaping(thats the hardest thing in this job for me) welding, grinding again, welding again, burning trought...swearing , painting, puting fiber glas filler, sanding it... Well the job is finaly over one hour ago and my rusty old car is ready to roll tomorow again.

Here are some pictures of me doing it wit the ol buzboxx
Pictures are really bad,as it was raining all fucking day. That made me realy mad. I was all day in the mud, under the old rusty car...buth I made some gipsy kinda roof over the car so I managed to do the job.

Enyoj on pictures(they are bad...buth it was cloudy and some of them are late at night taken):



Well...here is a nice litle oll rusty car colapse. Before grinding it all looked so nice(forgot to picture)...just few bublles. Buth when starded to grind bubles...it was a rust disaster:


This one is taken at only sunny moment today...its warry bad picture buth you can see the big hole in front of the rear left wheel.


Tunel was full of mud and sand and rust:


And the magic begun. Oll buzzbox started to buzzing and job was done:





Most problems had with places where grip pliers could not reach and was not able to hold metal on car. In that moment had to tackle sheet. One hand holding the sheet, other hand welding. Painful to the eyes buth no other way to do it. When you tackle it...take mask again and weld it nice spot by spot.





Discowered an realy good thing...when welded under parths of sheet. On some places new rod could not reach welding position...so I had to cut them on half. Oh...why noebody said that before to me...its much easyer to weld with such 2 shorter than with 1 long rod. Because in those akward out of reach and out of neck fatigue positions it is realy hard to position the rod correctly.

Buth when discovered that metod...made it like pro.

Look of these 3 beautyfil welds pictures:



Shame on you mig bastards
I have a joke for you. What can a mig guy do when he sees qwerty welding rusty 0.8mm shett metal with ac 160 apms buzz box? Well the mig guy only can sitt in corner and cry And be jelaous

Just kidding guys. I know you all can do it better then myself. Buth afther all night working at job and all day repairing old rusty car, must take a brake and put a smile on my face.



Wel...afther all those welding...we had to grind it all. And than put on all that base anticorosive paint.


Well not to lie to you...i made lot of burntrought holes today...its not the problem in my 0.8mm sheet metal...problem is in rusty old car body. man when you grind it to shiny new metal that is so thin you cant beleave it. Easy to burn trought. Buth...noting to big...
Those mistakes I had to correct with some fiberglass filer:



hehe at the end all looks like new. No holes
Man...I should make money with my buzzbox if I made a comercial like this: Fiberglas filler, and base paint: FIXING bad welders errors since their invention


Afther fiber hardens...outer side is sanded and later will be painted. Inner side I covered with some black underbody protection:




And that was all...car looks like new:



Now little fuynny pictures:
This is the mud I wass all day inside:


Thats my homemade rain protecing roof. Gipsy style pantent nmb:61992p. patent pending.

Well...the ground was wet before...and the car to...but thanks to that roof I worked on dry...and whats most important my oll buzzbox was not on the rain.

Rainy glases of my oll rusty car:

One more picture of that gipsy styling roof




And this lady and gentleman. Welders and weldors...this is one special person. Helps me with my welding. SHe is the master of it. Knows always what arc lenght to aply, what amperage, what rods, what position. Knows how much to grind, how to shape sheet metal, how to put fiberglas filler on it, how to paint. And so shee all days stays by mu side and watches what I am doing. I must by a helmet for her to.
Let me introduce you her:


Its my small cat and I call her Maca, which on serbian means Cat
Found her few mounts ago...it had only few days,and was abandoned,somebody droped her in garbage container. I was going back home and saw her,felt sory for her,so picked it up, puted her in oll rusty car and brought her home. Now is she helping me fix that same car because she is feeling grateful

Look how she comand me how to do things...because Maca is a welding pro. Not some loosy beginer as me.

"hey you give me those roods...must smell them to se are they 6011 or 6013" "

Damn it smells like 6013. Not the best ones buth they will do the job"

"Now listen to me carefuly. You must set for lower amperage. Tackle weld for short bursts, being careful not to burntrought,,,and still holding enought to make good penetration. Understood?"

"Oh you amateur foul. You burned that cars body again. How manny times I said yo you be careful with those sheet metal. You nevver gonna lern it.
Give me that rod I must to it all alone"





Well... thats all folks. Hope you enjoyed.
Feel free to coment and give both positive and negative opinions on my welding.



Thats all for me on those couple days. tomorow at 12:00 I go on a business trip with my oll rusty car it would be a rocky mountain 200km road trip. will be back on forum for couple of days.

[Nils]

If you can get your hands on some 6011 you'd do much better with the dirt and rust. It's the AC version of 6010 which cools quicker too for those vertical and inverted positions. Do you have access to 6011?

Nils

[qwerty12]

Once I wrecked all stores in my town looking for those 6011 rods...because somebody said to me they penetrate more...buth could not wind them.
Here in bosnia in most stores you can buy croatian zagreb electrodes and slovenian jadran electrodes. and both are 6013. maybe in some bigger stores there is 6011, buth in my small town there is no such thing...

And...when talking abouth those rods...as I figured it out 6013 is filler rod with wide pool and it goes not deep. And the 6011 is a deep penetration rood.

And I do not understand when people advice me to use 6011...if 6013 make burntrought and penetrate too much...than I can only imagine what would a deep penetration 6011 rods do...