[AdrianH]

Learning at college and practising as much at home as I can get the time. For the course all is with E6013 rods and 6mm stock, practising the fillet weld and I seem to be OK running the root and capping after, but where I struggle is where I need to do a stop/start.
At the end of a stop I can see a small hole in the root where the heat has not built up enough to fuse/fill the void into the corner, it leaves a sort of crescent shape. I have trouble filling this when starting with a new rod.

Test cut through fillet

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On the training I am not allowed to grind back so have to try and get it correct every time. I am running 85 amps for the 2.5mm rod on the root and 115 amps for the 3.2mm rod on a weave cap.

I am also trying to take video's of some runs at home so I can watch and try and see what I get wrong and to post so others can give advice, so if you feel bored here is a link to this when I welded it up.
PWOys0IFFbQ

I would like to be able to get the camera to see the arc better but can not yet. But if you have any tips on how I should end the previous run and start a new so I do not have the void, it would be appreciated.

Adrian

[Poland308]

Watched your vid. Noticed that as you travel with the bead you start by pushing the bead and end by pulling it. Ending the bead by pulling seems to be causing the end of your pass to hump up and trap slag( the small spot you pointed out at the end of your first bead). Try pulling the bead the whole way. And when you get to the end of your rod don't try to make the last 1/2in or so as thick as the rest of your bead this will allow you to start your next pass back on the top of your last bead and not in front of it. It takes some practice to judge how thin to end the last bead to leave room for your next start.

[AdrianH]

OK I think I follow, is this down to the angle I am holding the rod to the direction of travel, if so I guess I am getting towards 90 or indeed pushing slightly rather then holding at say 75 or 80 degrees to travel at the end of the rod.

Am I getting that correct? I could be trying to use up the rod more so end up getting tighter with the holder and this is causing me the issue, just into trying again so will keep this in mind.

Thanks

Adrian

[Poland308]

Watch the vid and take note of your hand position in relation to the arc and the angle of the rod i.e. Direction it is pointing at the arc. As you travel it changes. This is normal as you start learning it's important to keep all these things the same as you run one whole rod. I think one of Jamie's stick videos hit on rod push vs rod pull and the diferance it makes in the bead you leave behind. Separate note on how much of a rod to burn. Your bead you leave behind should never be longer than the length of the rod you burn. Some rods do not like to be used up till there short ( see Jamie's video on SS stick). I know from experience if your running a 7018 rod at the high end of the recomended amps it is possible to cook the life out of the flux coating on the rod before you get it to the puddle this results in lots of pin holes in the end of your bead from loss of the gas shield.

[AdrianH]

OK Thanks, I will run some more rods and try and keep it consistent as I go.

Thanks for the help.

Adrian

[AdrianH]

On watching the video again I did see what you meant at the end of the first run, I kept the wrist in the same spot but twisted it as the rod got shorter so I must have been going to 90 degrees. I have had another go, better but still not perfect so will have more goes in the garage tomorrow, finding I am using around a 65 to 70 degrees lead angle (guesswork) and wondering if to far? The issue I have is that without that type of angle I find the fluid coating starts to undertake the arc.

Can I ask if I should be running a few more amps and a little bit faster, or would you say a bit higher current should mean faster travel. I run around 85 amps so say try a small increase to 90 Amps, the range on the box is 70 to 100.

I know it is hard to tell but the pieces in the video were 300 mm long or near 12 inches so a 2.5 root rod was typically 4 inches or 100mm.

I tend to think some would weld using 3.2 mm rod or even 4mm, but the aim is to do a multi-pass weld and not build it up to much.

Thanks

Adrian

[AdrianH]

I am still struggling, I am making sure I do not go to 90 degrees when ending the root run, but still having the issue when staring another bead where the last finished. I have been sawing up the metal test pieces at the stop/start positions and still see a void. So I took my pieces down to a fabrication shop and spoke to the welder. He said that they are slag inclusions getting trapped under the metal at the stop start point. Asked about the rods and said that 6013 is not a good rod for penetration, has a heavy slag and what is happening is the slag at the leading edge of the arc is getting trapped when I break the arc, it cools before starting the next rod. I took the information to the welder supplies I use and asked about it there, they suggested a bit more of a penetrating rod, again after seeing the test pieces and I came away with some Lincoln Electric OMNIA 46 rods in 2.5mm, these being DCEN so should give more heat into the metal and may help burn out or penetrate more where I have been running the ESAB's DCEP.

I found them a bit harder to get a consistent arc in the corner, it would happily just deposit on one face then in the root, but after practice, I got there.

The slag coating comes off a lot easier as I have a lot smoother finish as can be seen in this pic as it just tends to lift and drop away at times.

DSCF1178.JPG (38.68 KiB) Viewed 2291 times

This is a stop and the next picture shows how my stop/starts (at the punch mark) are looking, (can do a lot worse)

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The picture below is another stop where I am still having the same issue, I think with a slag inclusion down there in the corner.

DSCF1183.JPG (73.48 KiB) Viewed 2291 times

The last pictures is where I have cut my test piece at the above second stop start point, so I can see what is going on and this is a typical problem I am having. This is a bad example, or a good one of the fault, normally smaller then this but still there.

DSCF1186.JPG (41.71 KiB) Viewed 2291 times

So can I ask, do you think it could be slag inclusions or leaving a hole that is not getting filled, how should I be ending one run ready for the next?
Tighter arc?
Pause with a long arc to get more heat in?
Change of rod angle at the end?
None of the above?

As ever comments welcome.

Cheers

Adrian

[Poland308]

Is that cut from the middle of a weld? How many amps ? Try turning the welder up more it might be marked as 80 amps but it really looks like your running less than that. Turn it up 5 amps at a time until it feels like your about to burn all the way through or until you start feel out of control. Then post a few pics again.Things on the surface are starting to look more smooth. The slag should generally almost pop free on its own like you describe. But some slags are literally designed to to stick to the weld till it cools below a certain temp.

[AdrianH]

According to the display on the welder this was at 90 amps, but will continue to try hotter. I centre punch at the end where you see the small hole in the weld, so if I get it correct I saw through the punch mark and the base of the stop start.. I will try to get more time tonight after work.

Cheers

Adrian

[Coldman]

I hate to tell you this but your LWS sold you some more E6013 rods. http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/g ... 46-eng.pdf

6013 rods are notorious for poor penetration and inclusions. The only things I can suggest with these rods are:
-increase your amps to maximum for these rods which is 90 amps for 3/32 rods.
- strike your arc at least 1/2" ahead of your previous finish and then move the arc back onto the restart and hold there momentarily to establish a puddle and burn in a little.

There are better rods for fillet penetration 7018/7016, but require hot box storage which is expensive to set up at home if you don't have access to one already.

There are cellulose rods 6010/6011 which don't require hot storage but are not strictly meant for single pass fillets and require technique that may be different to your training practice requirements. This is why schools use 6013 for beginners (keeps cost down until the passing students move up to the next level). So you might just have to suck it in and cope with what you've got. Your fillets look good and consistent from the outside so you're obviously progressing nicely.

[AdrianH]

Hi Coldman, thanks for the comments and yes I realise they are 6013, but not that they had any selection of others in 2.5mm, but supposedly a better rod the then ESAB 46.30 I am using, he did offer to give me two rods to go and try with, but two would not do anything for me it would take me several to get to get used to them so I bought a 5kg box.

I have tried what you said and unfortunately for me has not changed anything, a bit picture heavy but here we go.

Not the best fit-up job as a bit rushed to get some time in tonight.

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First run

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Hole at the end after digging some flux out.

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Did as suggested and started 1/2 inch in and then went back over weld and out again, also trying to keep a slightly smaller bead.

DSCF1192.JPG (29.47 KiB) Viewed 1193 times

On my third bead I got it wrong, not sure if it started with some slag from running back to the start but for some reason I only attached to the vertical.


I tried running at 93 and 95 Amps but found something a bit odd, the splatter was harder to remove granted but the slag coating was no longer easy to remove, it was sticking like glue, on a separate piece I dropped it back to 85 amps and it was easy removed again. Would not have though higher current would make it stick?

For practice I used 46.30 in 3.2mm DCEP for a weaved cap, a bit rushed and missing in places, so I should take more care.

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But the next picture show that I had the same issue at the stop/starts.

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For a check I did a saw cut through the weld about an inch away from a previous cut just to see how the root was doing, and not that fantastic, nothing like it shows how the weld should penetrate into the root on most of the welding diagrams.

DSCF1198.JPG (34.32 KiB) Viewed 1193 times

Any way will be in college again tomorrow, so my Fillet test piece I did two weeks ago in lesson will be cut up. Macro etched, pull test and a Nick break test, going off these test pieces I am doing at home it does not bode well.

I will be pestering my lecturer tomorrow night and taking some test pieces with me.

Adrian

[Poland308]

I may have to get a small package of the 6013 just to try. Does the welder your using have a dig or arc force setting?

[AdrianH]

One welder does have an arc force setting, but a second not, so if possible I would like to sort with out the added bells.

I though arc force was a percentage increase just to stop sticking when initially striking up. i.e. just to give a bit more amps when striking, once arc is lit it ends?

I have looked out for some reasonable 2.5 6010, but looks like I would have to get from the internet.

Adrian

[AKweldshop]

Not to sound like a bully, but this is why we use 7018.

[AdrianH]

Granted in real life yes you may well, but in a college trying to learn and pass some tests, we use what the college provides and these are 6013's and are still expected to pass.

Hence I got the same rods as college, I have been trying a bit different rods, but it looks like it is down to me and how I weld. Like on stop starts I am not allowed to use a grinder. In work, on a job you would as it means the job gets completed.

Adrian

[AdrianH]

Well my Horizontal/Vertical Fillet weld passed muster. I am trying to get the criteria for the welds, I was surprised at what will pass, so I think I will continue to strive to do the very best I can and just post images from time to time for critique.

Next to get used to is vertical lap joint in 6mm vertical fillet in 6mm vertical V butt in 6mm and a flat V but in 6mm, the flat one is my hardest for some reason.

Practice, practice and practice some more.

Adrian