[TraditionalToolworks]

Simclardy,

See other Primeweld thread for my response, I think you may have replied to wrong thread.

Alan

[Simclardy]

Simclardy,

See other Primeweld thread for my response, I think you may have replied to wrong thread.

Alan

I was responding to this thread. Post #24.
You where worried about running 36amps on 10 gauge. I did see your other thread and will answer.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[TraditionalToolworks]

I was responding to this thread. Post #24.
You where worried about running 36amps on 10 gauge. I did see your other thread and will answer.

Ah, sorry for the confusion, I see where I mentioned running 36 amps over a 10 gauge, but that is the wiring I am using from my 30 amp breaker to a receptacle that I plug my machines into or my RPC, and then all the cables are using 10 gauge to the machine.

And maybe that is a similar case, where the machine could be allowed more due to the small conductor correction you mentioned. However, I feel comfortable using 10 gauge to the machine.

I'll look for your response in the other thread. I appreciate any help, there was a similar question with the Primeweld that uses 12 gauge. The Primeweld is a 225 amp machine but not exactly sure what the required 220 volt amps which it requires.

Alan

[Oscar]

Should be here in about a week, hopefully less.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Nice on the RPC, I guess...

I use an RPC in my current shop, but they're noisy and seems like the walls just vibrate with the hum through the house as my garage is attached. New shop will be quiet so the people upstairs can enjoy the view...

I'm keeping my RPC at my current home.

Kind of overkill to get another 50 amps on your welder, but what do I know...

That will come in handy for machinery in the future, you should get yourself familiar with used machinery and shop for 3 phase machines on craigslist rather than buying a new mill. My $0.02, not trying to even tell you what to do, but now that you have the investment done you might as well try to take the best advantage of it.

A 30HP RPC is frickin' huge, so not only is it overkill for your welder, the fact is you will probably never have the need for so much 3 phase. That should be able to start even the hardest of the 20HP machines. I don't know if you are too familiar with machines, but a 20HP is a HUGE machine. Most hobbyist only need to run a single machine at a time. Possibly dust collection at the some time, but you can run 3x the amount of power on the RPC as long as all of them don't start at the same time.

That means your RPC is capable of running 90HP worth of machines...

Think about mounting it outside in a separate box to isolate the noise. I doubt you would do anything stupid like running a cord with multiple outlets hanging off of it with wires exposed, you seem smarter than that.

[Oscar]

Kind of overkill to get another 50 amps on your welder, but what do I know...

That will come in handy for machinery in the future, you should get yourself familiar with used machinery and shop for 3 phase machines on craigslist rather than buying a new mill. My $0.02, not trying to even tell you what to do, but now that you have the investment done you might as well try to take the best advantage of it.

Nothing is overkill. General Zod has a very specific purpose for everything!

Right now, it's sole purpose will be delegated to powering my Invertig 400 and Pro Pulse 300 as those are the only 3-Φ capable machines I own. As a corollary of having so much reserve capacity, I expect it to run very cool and last a very long time. Future use could see some 3-phase machinery use. No need to "get familiar with used machinery", as I'm still not going to scour craigslist as there isn't anything worth looking at anywhere nearby, lol. I want stuff delivered to my house, Amazon Prime style, brand new! That is the expectation.

As for the mounting, there is no area outside close to the garage that I could build a housing/enclosure on. So it will be in the garage without a doubt. I'm already starting to clear up space. Ordered some shelves/racks to take stuff off the floor to make room. I need to start making a cart for it. That way I can roll it around to move it when ever I redecorate the garage for different seasons of the year and depending what is in style at the moment in the world of machinery decòr.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Nothing is overkill. General Zod has a very specific purpose for everything!

No worries then, was mainly pointing out that you have one big RPC there. Not uncommon to get an RPC that is 50% larger than your needs, because the difficult hard starting machines will use about 50% more for startup. This includes lathes, band saws, and especially CNCs which draw a lot of power.

No need to "get familiar with used machinery", as I'm still not going to scour craigslist as there isn't anything worth looking at anywhere nearby, lol. I want stuff delivered to my house, Amazon Prime style, brand new! That is the expectation.

That's fair, but I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to be checking craigslist, it's where I've found some of the best buys. I don't order too much from Amazon, and certainly haven't ordered too much new machinery, if any. Some tools but no machines. I have a couple thing, like a Jet band saw I bought before I was enlightened to 3 phase. The biggest motor I have on a machine is 7-1/2HP, but the biggest motor I've had in my current shop is 5HP and I use a 7-1/2HP RPC running on my 30 amp circuit.

As for the mounting, there is no area outside close to the garage that I could build a housing/enclosure on.

You could probably pour a small slab, then build a cover over the RPC. Sounds like you have the room and doesn't seem like the noise will bother you, but you should wait until that 30HP motor is spinning.

I need to start making a cart for it. That way I can roll it around to move it when ever I redecorate the garage

My advice, make a long extension and leave the RPC in a fixed location, it's way easier, IMO.

So, speaking for myself, the Phase Perfect I got is probably twice the size I really needed, a 10HP unit would have been plenty. However, I found the 20HP barely used for 1/2 the MSRP which was cheaper than I could find a used 10HP for, so jumped on it. (craigslist ). The Phase Perfect is different than an RPC, it doesn't require 50% more to start difficult machinery, it provides pure 3 phase with 3 legs the same voltage. The RPC 3rd leg which is generated by the 3 phase motor is always different. Anyway, although Phase Perfect rates them by HP, it is really a box that supplies 55 amps of continuous pure 3 phase. There is a very slight hum to the enclosure, but I mean very slight. Nowhere near what an RPC motor is. I plug my welder into the same outlet I use for my RPC, I have a single phase extension that my welder plugs into. My table and tank are on the opposite side of the garage. I also have a 3 phase extension, although I used to add a long 3 phase plug on each machine, I realized that it was cheaper to just create an extension and shorter plugs on the machines. 55 amps of 3 phase is way more than I need, but there is one single thing that I could use the power for...converting my sawmill from a 23HP gas engine to a 15HP-20HP 3 phase motor. 15HP might be better size/weight wise.

What you will most likely find is that most of the machines you will purchase will have motors that are less than 5HP, if that. And you will also see that you are not running multiple machines on 3 phase at the same time as you don't have a commercial shop. More power certainly doesn't hurt. However you're talking about a couple metalworking machines that will have 3HP motors or smaller from what I can tell. Wait til you see what a new machine costs with even a 10HP or <gasp> 15HP motor. These types of metalworking machines are in the $70k-$100k range...One area is a used CNC, a number were 15HP-20HP for the older Japanese machines, but again, you say you won't shop on craigslist so you will be limited to a Tormach type CNC if you were to get one. You have enough power to run a Haas CNC, but when you see the prices on them it may detour you.

I'm only trying to help educate you on RPCs, I've been using one for about 12-15 years. My RPC has a 1725rpm motor on it, and the arbor has been cut off flush specific for RPC use. It's one of the most efficient 7-1/2HP motors that could be purchased. I didn't build it, but the previous owner did and bought the enclosure from Anderson. I have no complaints, and plan to keep using it at my home.

(I am sure a wordy mofo... )

[Oscar]

but I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to be checking craigslist, it's where I've found some of the best buys.

We live in completely different demographic areas. You're simply assuming that what you find near-by within a reasonable driving radius, are somehow someway the same kind of things that are also available to me where I live. Have you bothered to look at the Craigslist in Laredo, or even San Antonio? Please send me links to at least 3-5 machines I should be looking at. (hint: don't even bother because I already did what you should have done if you really wanted to be helpful with the whole used-machinery-thing, which is to open up craigslist in the relevant area, to then make pertinent suggestions. I'm not new to checking craigslist. We just live in completely different areas of the country that are very very dissimilar with regards to this specific subject).

I appreciate your advice/information on your RPC, since this is my first one. But if I would have waited to find one on my craigslist, I'd be long dead before I did. This is ranch-land where I live, and our craigslist exemplifies that.

Fixed location doesn't work for me. Things change. Last thing I want to say to myself is "well if only I hadn't done this fixed installation on this here RPC....".

[TraditionalToolworks]

We live in completely different demographic areas. You're simply assuming that what you find near-by within a reasonable driving radius, are somehow someway the same kind of things that are also available to me where I live.

I think your wrong, I live in one of the areas where there are more people looking for machines than most any other location. Engineers are building decked out shops more than anyone else, and they have the money so prices are also high. I have driven 6 hours on wild goose chases, one way. I have driven just as far to get machines that I wanted. Most of my machines sold for a lot of money when new, at least for the time they were built, but I have paid pennies on the dollar for many of them. Others I have paid a fair price, it's always different. I have a lot of woodworking and metalworking machines, as well as blacksmithing tools, those are harder to find here than Texas for certain.

I appreciate your advice/information on your RPC, since this is my first one. But if I would have waited to find one on my craigslist, I'd be long dead before I did. This is ranch-land where I live, and our craigslist exemplifies that.

Didn't mean to imply you should have waited, just that a smaller one may have been more suitable for your needs. Nothing wrong with upsizing. I would have probably bought an enclosure and found a 3 phase motor on craigslist, they go for dirt cheap in most cases. I've seen 30HP motors for $200. Recently there was a 30HP 3 phase motor for $400. Cheap when you consider how much they cost new. I have a number of 3 phase motors, but only up to 5HP as that is what most machines would use that I'm interested in. Problem is you needed a pretty big one to run your welder on. I would have kept using it on single phase 350 amps and gotten a smaller RPC, but again, not criticizing you, you know better what you want and need.

If you want to find stuff on craigslist, you need to check several times a day and have searches setup. Some of my best buys as I said have been on craigslist. Once a guy inherited an estate filed with antique cars from his uncle. There was a South Bend Heavy 10 that he just wanted to get rid of. He posted on craigslist that the first one to contact him and come over could take it for $200. I somehow saw it about 15 minutes after he posted. He was bombarded with calls, but I got to him first and was ready and knew how to get it and move it. He had an engine hoist we used to load it on my flat bed.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Oscar,

I'm sure you may know better, but I think your 30HP RPC will require 80 amps.

Your welder only required 50 amps for 350 amps of welding.

This means you're only getting 50 more welding amps for 30 more amps to power it, unless I'm missing something.

I suspect the problem is that a 20HP RPC is not enough to power the welder, so you have to upsize to the next motor size which is 30HP. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Oscar]

Oscar,

I'm sure you may know better, but I think your 30HP RPC will require 80 amps.

Your welder only required 50 amps for 350 amps of welding.

This means you're only getting 50 more welding amps for 30 more amps to power it, unless I'm missing something.

I suspect the problem is that a 20HP RPC is not enough to power the welder, so you have to upsize to the next motor size which is 30HP. Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm 99.99999% sure that is not the case with the amperage consumption you mentioned.

[TraditionalToolworks]

I'm 99.99999% sure that is not the case with the amperage consumption you mentioned.

How many amps does it take to run a 30HP RPC ?

I don't know for sure, that's what I see on some of the spec sheets, AFAICT.

[Oscar]

I'm 99.99999% sure that is not the case with the amperage consumption you mentioned.

How many amps does it take to run a 30HP RPC ?

I don't know for sure, that's what I see on some of the spec sheets, AFAICT.

The 80A is not what it takes for it to run under any and all circumstances. I believe 80A is what is recommended for the breaker. The spec sheet says 70A (presumably for full load) @ 230V. My welder will not be able to fully load it, it just doesn't draw that much power. So at peak welding power at the machine, I suspect about 65A is what it will pull from the breaker, based on my calculations.

[TraditionalToolworks]

The 80A is not what it takes for it to run under any and all circumstances. I believe 80A is what is recommended for the breaker. The spec sheet says 70A (presumably for full load) @ 230V. My welder will not be able to fully load it, it just doesn't draw that much power. So at peak welding power at the machine, I suspect about 65A is what it will pull from the breaker, based on my calculations.

Right, but 2 things to consider.

1) try to find a 70a breaker. you will need to go to an 80a and why it is most likely spec'd that way.

2) in order to get your welder up to 400a you will be using the top end of the circuit. You will be using the top 12.5% of it in fact, so you should plan on it putting a full load on it to be safe.

That said, I would run it on an 80amp circuit. This would be better answered by someone more familiar with electricity like Simclardy, there could be other numbers involved that could effect it.

Even you know more than me so maybe I'm speaking out of place here.

[Oscar]

The 80A is not what it takes for it to run under any and all circumstances. I believe 80A is what is recommended for the breaker. The spec sheet says 70A (presumably for full load) @ 230V. My welder will not be able to fully load it, it just doesn't draw that much power. So at peak welding power at the machine, I suspect about 65A is what it will pull from the breaker, based on my calculations.

Right, but 2 things to consider.

1) try to find a 70a breaker. you will need to go to an 80a and why it is most likely spec'd that way.

2) in order to get your welder up to 400a you will be using the top end of the circuit. You will be using the top 12.5% of it in fact, so you should plan on it putting a full load on it to be safe.

That said, I would run it on an 80amp circuit. This would be better answered by someone more familiar with electricity like Simclardy, there could be other numbers involved that could effect it.

Even you know more than me so maybe I'm speaking out of place here.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-BR-70 ... /100178137

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-70- ... 149778-_-N


Anything else with your take-out order Sir?

(I'm not saying I will use those, just showing what I can find that you can't )


Don't worry. Electrical won't be a problem. I have 125A available at the sub-panel. Plenty for anything and everything. Right now the only thing I'm brushing up is the wiring/connections on the RPC and the panel, since I don't have any upclose pics of it yet, so I pretty much have to wait until it gets here.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Oscar,

That first link looks like your answer, IMO, I didn't know you could get 70 amp breakers so easily. For mine my buddy ran an actual ground to the plug, rather than using neutral. I've heard it is somewhat similar, but not sure the exact difference. The neutral comes in from the power company I believe, a ground goes to the ground as I understand it.

However, you don't need a 70 amp 3 pole like your second link I don't think, the power going out of the rpc is less than the input.

I can't remember, but off the top of my head it seems a 30HP RPC may output about 36 amps max. Maybe that requires a 40 amp 3 pole.

I think I'll go out and do some welding...too much time on the computer today.

[Oscar]

Oscar,

That first link looks like your answer, IMO, I didn't know you could get 70 amp breakers so easily. For mine my buddy ran an actual ground to the plug, rather than using neutral. I've heard it is somewhat similar, but not sure the exact difference. The neutral comes in from the power company I believe, a ground goes to the ground as I understand it.

However, you don't need a 70 amp 3 pole like your second link I don't think, the power going out of the rpc is less than the input.

I can't remember, but off the top of my head it seems a 30HP RPC may output about 36 amps max. Maybe that requires a 40 amp 3 pole.

I think I'll go out and do some welding...too much time on the computer today.

You're very confused. Like I said In my post, I'm not saying that I'm going to use those. You need to brush up on your V/A/W/HP calculations. How many amps a 30HP RPC can provide depends on the voltage. If you use 230V, it can provide a lot more than 36A. I will be using a 40A three pole for the welder though, because that is closest to the max amps it consumes on 3-Φ.

[TraditionalToolworks]

You're very confused.

Indeed, you linked to a 70 amp 3 pole.

[Simclardy]

Not to disagree, but 30hp is 30hp. Still alot but i think you mean the amperage times 3.
Power for 3 phase is v*a*1.73*pf=watt.
746watts per hp.
Cheers

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[TraditionalToolworks]

https://www.machinetoolproducts.com/con ... 0Sheet.pdf

https://www.southern-tool.com/store/pha ... etails.php

This looks like the Phase-o-matic sheet ripped off:

https://www.alfatransformer.com/downloa ... mation.pdf

They could be all wet.

[Simclardy]

https://www.machinetoolproducts.com/con ... 0Sheet.pdf

https://www.southern-tool.com/store/pha ... etails.php

This looks like the Phase-o-matic sheet ripped off:

https://www.alfatransformer.com/downloa ... mation.pdf

They could be all wet.

I see the spec sheet says the 30hp can be loaded with 90hp if you have multiple small load.
Very interesting. Do they mean lightly loaded so you only draw 30hp? I know Motors and transformers can be overloaded for a short time.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Oscar]

https://www.machinetoolproducts.com/con ... 0Sheet.pdf

https://www.southern-tool.com/store/pha ... etails.php

This looks like the Phase-o-matic sheet ripped off:

https://www.alfatransformer.com/downloa ... mation.pdf

They could be all wet.

I see the spec sheet says the 30hp can be loaded with 90hp if you have multiple small load.
Very interesting. Do they mean lightly loaded so you only draw 30hp? I know Motors and transformers can be overloaded for a short time.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Thats the only way I could see that happening. Just like any generator, whether its the massive ones from the power company or a tiny portable gasoline one, you can only draw So much power through the windings.

[TraditionalToolworks]

I see the spec sheet says the 30hp can be loaded with 90hp if you have multiple small load.
Very interesting. Do they mean lightly loaded so you only draw 30hp? I know Motors and transformers can be overloaded for a short time.

I don't know how they calculate, but it is known you can run more HP on an RPC than it is rated for. No machine is running full bore all the time, not in all cases but maybe a few. Think of it like your welder, how often are you running and using the max inrush?

The way the RPC works is peculiar though. It uses capacitors to be able to start the motor, but once the motor is spinning it provides the 3rd leg, and this is why 1 leg is always different on the RPC, more often than not it doesn't match up to the voltage on your circuit, although it may be possible, it just doesn't seem to happen.

So I don't know how they calculate to be honest, I'm not an electrician so will leave it at that. I just know what vendors say about RPCs that sell them and what users say. If you want a better converter, get a Phase Perfect, that's what I did. This is known as pure 3 phase by many and all 3 legs are the save voltage. Also does it with capacitors, but it's patented and I don't claim to fully understand it, other than it is much quieter than running an RPC and the voltage is much better and more stable. Commonly used for CNCs.

[Oscar]

None of that is of any importance to me to be honest. I'm not gonna load it up with multiple 3-Φ machines running lightly, lol. It's just gonna be the welder.

I don't claim to know how the RPC is set-up for the 3rd leg simply because I haven't researched it enough, but so long as it works, I'll be happy. I'll be sure to post some pics when it gets here. The only thing that I find very interesting, is that in some wiring diagrams (from a different manufacturer), it seems that two legs of the final 3-Φ output where the load goes, are the two hots from the 240V input. Seems strange to me, unless I have that wrong in the first place.

In this picture, it is the 2nd one at the bottom:



As you can see, the 2nd diagram has L1 and L2 from the 240V 1-Φ service feeding the 3-Φ panel, plus the 3rd manufacturered line to complete the 3rd hot. I always thought it would be like the diagram in the 1st top-half of that pic.

[Poland308]

3 phz is hard to wrap your head around at first. But worth the effort. I know it well enough to trouble shoot it but not well enough to explain it.

Edit: depending on how you use it it responds differently. Motors, heat loads, straight draw. All act differently.