[Oscar]

The duty cycle isn't calculated, it is measured empirically and/or already given, on the electrical spec sticker of the machine. For my Invertig 221, it is explicitly given at 20%.

[TraditionalToolworks]

The duty cycle isn't calculated, it is measured empirically and/or already given, on the electrical spec sticker of the machine. For my Invertig 221, it is explicitly given at 20%.

I can't see your image, it is way too big, but I will post the label which Jeff sent me. How do you determine which duty cycle is used? You may have a different label, but this one doesn't seem to imply which duty cycle is used.

htp 221 DV label

htp-221-dual-voltage-sticker.jpg (88.3 KiB) Viewed 9086 times

[Oscar]

The duty cycle of interest is the one that is correlated with the maximum welding output amperage. This is what places the greatest electrical strain on the wire conductors, and thus of interest.

[TraditionalToolworks]

The duty cycle of interest is the one that is correlated with the maximum welding output amperage. This is what places the greatest electrical strain on the wire conductors, and thus of interest.

Oscar,

Not trying to be stupid but where do you see a duty cycle that correlates to the maximum welding output amperage?

For I-max it says 32 amps.

Are you talking about the max amps output which is 220 amps?

How does that correlate to I-max? Are you saying that I-max represents the maximum amperage?

And this is even more confusing if one looks at the single voltage unit, where I-max is actually 44.5 amps. Jeff claims that's because it represents stick welding...but if that is true the HTP single voltage unit is much less efficient at stick welding as it shows 25% duty cycle and 28v vs. 20% duty cycle and 18.8 volts for tig at max amperage. It also doesn't make sense that my green weenie is so much more efficient...or that the DV is so much more efficient than the single voltage version.

No worries, so much of this doesn't make sense to me, and the numbers are confusing at best trying to compare between different manufacturers. Simclardy previously stated this has something to do with how they calculate, but I don't think all that info is shared with consumers like me and you.

[Oscar]

The duty cycle of interest is the one that is correlated with the maximum welding output amperage. This is what places the greatest electrical strain on the wire conductors, and thus of interest.

Oscar,

Not trying to be stupid but where do you see a duty cycle that correlates to the maximum welding output amperage?

For I-max it says 32 amps.

Are you talking about the max amps output which is 220 amps?

How does that correlate to I-max? Are you saying that I-max represents the maximum amperage?

And this is even more confusing if one looks at the single voltage unit, where I-max is actually 44.5 amps. Jeff claims that's because it represents stick welding...but if that is true the HTP single voltage unit is much less efficient at stick welding as it shows 25% duty cycle and 28v vs. 20% duty cycle and 18.8 volts for tig at max amperage. It also doesn't make sense that my green weenie is so much more efficient...or that the DV is so much more efficient than the single voltage version.

No worries, so much of this doesn't make sense to me, and the numbers are confusing at best trying to compare between different manufacturers. Simclardy previously stated this has something to do with how they calculate, but I don't think all that info is shared with consumers like me and you.

Yes, that's correct. Remember I tested it and made a video? At 217 amps TIG output, my electrical power meter showed ~32A going into the machine. That represents Imax.

What you are not seeing is that on the DV unit there is a separate "line" for Imax for operation on 115VAC (It is the line at the bottom that shows 44.5A/19A. There is a huge current draw there because the input voltage is so low (115VAC). I tested mine on 240VAC input, stick welding at 200A welding current (maximum for stick welding), and it did not show a spike of ~42A. Just 32A just like TIG. (perhaps the spike is there and it didn't catch it, because it does have a healthy 35% hot start on stick).

On stick welding, it does show 25% duty cycle @ 200A welding current, but that doesn't change any efficiency --- the machine can't go over 200A on stick like it can on TIG, therefore it has a slightly higher duty cycle there. If you TIG with it at 200A, the duty cycle would also be near 25%. It just doesn't show that on the sticker because there isn't enough space to list every single duty cycle at every single amperage the machine is capable of putting out.

I don't think the DV 221 is that much more efficient than the SV 221. Slightly perhaps, but not by much. Your everlast claims 60% duty cycle which is tough to believe, IMO. But I see them almost exactly the same with regards to pulling input amperage from the outlet. It pulls 27A @ 200A welding current. My 221 isn't measured at 200A, but if it was it would likely be less than 32A. How many amps would it pull, I would bet near 28-30A. Also, your everlast is only measured up to 160A on stick, so the Imax for it is likely designated for the TIG side.

With regards to duty cycle, I think the sticker is mis-printed on yours. The amps/volts on the output side seem to be in the wrong columns. Have a look at the tech specs for it on the everlast site:

https://www.everlastgenerators.com/prod ... ri-tig-201

[TraditionalToolworks]

Yes, that's correct. Remember I tested it and made a video? At 217 amps TIG output, my electrical power meter showed ~32A going into the machine. That represents Imax.

I did forget about that test you ran. Ok, that makes sense.

What you are not seeing is that on the DV unit there is a separate "line" for Imax for operation on 115VAC (It is the line at the bottom that shows 44.5A/19A.

No, I understood that. I was referring to the 221 SV, it states it requires 44.5amps I-max at 230v, 42.5 amps at 240v.

I tested mine on 240VAC input, stick welding at 200A welding current (maximum for stick welding), and it did not show a spike of ~42A. Just 32A just like TIG.

But you have a DV. I'm not disputing anything, just pointing out the great difference between the DV and SV.

Your everlast claims 60% duty cycle which is tough to believe, IMO.

No, I believe it because my green weenie is DC only.

Also, your everlast is only measured up to 160A on stick, so the Imax for it is likely designated for the TIG side.

Again, my green weenie doesn't do AC. AC draws more current. It makes sense to me that AC stick is a huge draw, and maybe that is why the HTP is rated the way it is.

With regards to duty cycle, I think the sticker is mis-printed on yours. The amps/volts on the output side seem to be in the wrong columns. Have a look at the tech specs for it on the everlast site:

It is the same on their website, no trickery.

Anyway, I think we should either move this discussion to the other thread I was asking about power requirements in general or end it, this is a thread for the Primeweld 225.

[sbaker56]

Oscar is on the money, but I'll see if I can resolve your confusion, if I'm misunderstanding your question or it comes off as condescending my apologies I'm just trying to cover things from the basics on up.

It takes a certain amount of amps at a certain voltage on the primary aka "wall" side, to output a certain amount of amps at a certain voltage on the welding side. Welders function by taking lower amperage, higher voltage electricity from the wall and transforming, hence transformer machine, into lower voltage higher amperage electricity to weld with. Because of this if a machine's specifics are known, it can be stated that if a certain machine is outputting 200 amps in stick welding mode, it is drawing lets just say approx 35 amps from the wall.

Now that very machine is only rated for a duty cycle of 20% at 200 amps, as all duty cycle ratings are out of 10 minutes, this means the machine is rated to run for only for 2 minutes maxed out. Because we know the machine draws 35 amps on the primary/plug side when outputting 200 amps on the welding side it can be figured that said machine is only rated to draw a full 35 amps from the wall for a 2 minutes. Then presuming you either hit the thermal overload or were keeping track, you're supposed to let the machine idle for 8 minutes during which it will only be drawing a fraction of the amps it will under full load. During this time that the welder cools so does the wire supplying the welder.

Most electrical devices especially motors draw quite a bit more current during the split second of start up than they do under steady load and welders are no exception, I-max is the amps that the machine will briefly draw while striking an arc, or whatever action causes the highest surge, while I-eff is the effective draw when duty cycle is accounted for, the math is already done. It's the amps you'd wire your outlet for.

I think your confusion is probably over the discrepancy in I-max numbers, and I suspect it has to do with how the MFG calculates it, or rather specifically during what period of time it is. HTP may use the reading from highest split second spike in current draw while striking an arc, while Everlast might give a number a little closer to what it would be drawing a few seconds into the weld while maxed out. I'm honestly not sure on that one.

Edit: Yeah maybe not the right place for an in depth discussion on electrical requirements.

[Oscar]

With as little traffic as this site see, I doubt it's a huge toll on forum resources, lol.

It is the same on their website, no trickery.

You might want to look again. Even though your picture of the electrical spec isn't too clear, there is definitely something "off", compared to the website. It's of no relevance/importance to me, but to you as the owner I thought you might want to know if you hadn't already noticed it.

[Simclardy]

I think i understand what your saying oscar, but not sure if its accurate.
I assumed I eff had a formula with duty cycle. But i don't remember a formula given in the NEC.
When i Google effective current, it says it's another term for RMS.
I think this would change your answer.
In the end I eff can be thought of as the load the wire is going to need to carry and the I max as the load the breaker will need to deal with.

I might throw my welder on my power analyzer for giggles. It will separate apparent power and real power. I can graph everything.
Goodnight


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Oscar]

Oh, it's there in the NEC, that's how I found it to graph it on the desmos graphing utility. Based on the description in the NEC, it doesn't change my answer, as it is based on it. But we agree in the end with what you said about what the wire needs to deal with, and what the beaker needs to deal with.

[Simclardy]

Oh, it's there in the NEC, that's how I found it to graph it on the desmos graphing utility. Based on the description in the NEC, it doesn't change my answer, as it is based on it. But we agree in the end with what you said about what the wire needs to deal with, and what the beaker needs to deal with.

I had some time to look again.
Your right. It's in there as an informational note under 630.12(B)



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[TraditionalToolworks]

Ok after all of this electrical talk, I have a question about the Primeweld Tig 225x.

rbaldie,

If we haven't lost you, can you tell me what the max amps is on the machine for stick? (MMA)

Or if someone else that has a Primeweld Tig 225x, can you let me know what the max amps are for stick?

Typically most of these machines are not capable of doing the rated amperage on stick.

I am not sure, but might decide to pull the trigger on this welder.

[Oscar]

Isn't it around 200A or so given that it can do 225 on tig? Even 180A is plenty to light up big 5/32" electrodes, maybe even some 3/16".

[TraditionalToolworks]

double post

[TraditionalToolworks]

Isn't it around 200A or so given that it can do 225 on tig? Even 180A is plenty to light up big 5/32" electrodes, maybe even some 3/16".

Could be, but I hate to say it but it seems it's missing one function that is kind of important to me...arc force (or dig as Miller calls it).

I knew that it doesn't have 6010 capability, but in closely looking at the front panel there is no arc force for stick that I can see.

I do use stick and that feature is important given the lack of 6010, which is what I would prefer.

I currently have 160 amps on stick with arc force, and my current green weenie is limited to 200 for tig, but 225 amps is not a lot more...I know I could keep my green weenie, but if I was to get the Primeweld my thought was to sell it.

The main selling point is that it is 25% the cost of the HTP 221 DV...I got a notification that Primeweld will be having the units go on sale soon for ship in about 2 weeks. I need to ponder this...although I can't weld aluminum with my green weenie, I'm thinking I'm probably just better to keep it and wait until I can buy a better used machine or the HTP 221 DV as I think I am better off with stick having the arc force, even though I can only weld 160 amps, still that's plenty for 1/8" 7018 and can actually weld 5/32" if need be, although 160 is down in the low range for 5/32" rod. Also, my green weenie is about half the size/weight that the Primeweld is. (I need to think about this)

EDIT: I found this info on the Amazon questions and answers, So it only does 180 amps for MMA. Also Primeweld only states it will do MMA with 6013 and 7018, although some say it welds 6011 and 6010, that's NOT what Mike told me at Primeweld. Not a lot of people using them for stick, seems to primarily be a tig machine, which is ok. I use stick also though.

Question: What is the duty rating?

Answer:

10 to 225 amps, AC/DC w/pulse, 120/240 volt, pre and post flow, Ck flex head torch 12 1/2' SF hose with 1/2" dinse with 5/8"x18 standard argon fittings.

Duty cycle 120 volt
TIG 40% @ 140, 100% @ 108
MMA 40% @ 120, 100% @ 76

Duty cycle 240 volt
TIG 40% @ 225, 100% @ 155
MMA 40% @ 180, 100% @ 139

[TraditionalToolworks]

Primeweld Tig 225x is available on the Primeweld website, probably
not for very long, but they just went on sale:

If you've been waiting for one, today is the day.

https://primeweld.com/products/tig-225x ... tig-welder

[TraditionalToolworks]

Well, I went back on my statement...and I just ordered a Primeweld 225.

I exchanged some information with Mike this morning and his reply on what can be expected in regard to stick capability was that it will work with 6011, 6013, 7014, 7018, 7024 and he also said that many people say they do 6010 if you have a lot of experience. I would be happy with just 6011. He also sent me a copy of the manual to look at.

And to be honest, I plan on using this for tig mostly.

What did seal the deal for me was the following comment:

"If for any reason the machine does not live up to what you want it to you can return it for a full refund and and we will pay shipping back. We will make sure you are happy. "

I must say that is more than fair, and even will pay for return shipping, so I decided to pull the trigger.

rbaldie,

Sorry if I crapped up your thread, but I did end up buying one in the end.

[Oscar]

It seems to be a great machine for the money. If I was just starting out all over again, then I would probably get that machine to wet my beak into the pond of TIG welding.

[TraditionalToolworks]

It seems to be a great machine for the money. If I was just starting out all over again, then I would probably get that machine to wet my beak into the pond of TIG welding.

Oscar,

I would also have bought it rather than the machine I did, but this wasn't available when I bought my green weenie.

I ended up upgrading my green weenie with the same torch and pedal, so this would have been a much better way to go, I'm hoping I can still sell my green weenie to recover some of my money.

I won't lie, I would rather have an HTP or Miller, however I have a major project with a shop/home build that is a HUGE money sync and more important to me than having a better welder. Supposed to get my meter and panel mounted on my pole next Wed. so PG&E will be able to drop my electrical service. I am looking forward to the 320 amp service, and more so to start getting the shop setup so I can move the log shell onto the foundation. I have a huge investment in this project...

This welder will at least let me get my feet wet with aluminum.

EDIT: All machines sold out again.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Second, the fan noise does not seem loud to me, it is less that my Lincoln TIG welder and way less than my ESAB MIG welder.

Randy,

Funny thing is since I posted that message I did see a guy comparing the Primeweld 225x against the Lincoln SW 200 who used a decibel meter (I know you had the 175), and the Lincoln SW 200 was actually louder. I know my Everlast green weenie is pretty loud...and actually while I call it the green weenie, it's not a bad DC Tig machine, I mostly despise the people that sell and support them. I read about a lot of people who had had problems with Everlast support, but the people that get a working machine seem to like them. I've wanted to get rid of mine almost since the time I bought it, mostly because of the owner Oleg, and Mark who provides online support. I did buy my machine from Oleg in person, so will never forget how he treated me over an error on their part. I can only warn people buying an Everlast green weenie...caveat emptor.

[Simclardy]

What did oleg do?

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[rbaldie]

Alan,

I have had my 225x for several months now and I am very happy with the machine. The Lincoln 175 was OK on thicker Aluminum but was not that good on the thinner gauge material. I was a professional welder from the mid 60's through the 70's building on and off road heavy equipment with all sorts of welding process, including a ton of aluminum work and the 225x is a really good machine on steel and aluminum. I have not used it on any stainless yet with TIG and I probably never will do any stick welding with it as I have other machines for that . Aside from all of the discussion on different machines and price ranges, for the money, especially my money it has been a great value and solid performer. Good luck on your decision.

[TraditionalToolworks]

What did oleg do?

Less Oleg than it was Mark to be honest, but I am probably one of the few people you will
meet online that has actually met and bought my machine in person from him. I live in
Silicon Valley, so it wasn't too far to drive up, and I paid cash for my machine. He was
kind enough to let me change the machine I had originally bought, and was nice about it.

The machine didn't include a pedal, and I bought one online. The Amazon ad said it
worked with my machine. Turned out it had the wrong connector when it arrived. I
contacted him and he told me I could bring it up and he would exchange it. However,
must have been a bad day for him or something, but he got really P.O.'d at me, called
me some names and reluctantly replaced it with one they had been using at the test bench.
I was pretty upset about the words he used, didn't say a thing, didn't say goodbye, just took
the pedal and walked out and left. As I got on the freeway he started calling me, but I was
pretty upset at that point and didn't answer, he tried calling a few times on my way home.
I did finally take his call later in the day and we worked out our differences...but then Mark
got really upset at me for opening my machine and taking pics of the inside. Some of it was
kind of shoddy work, but it is an inexpensive inverter. I didn't have any real complaints against
the machine, but Mark didn't treat me very well, so that was the 2nd mark against them. I
wasn't treated very well after that on their forum.

The more I looked around, the more people I saw that had issues with returning machine,
or machines that broke just after going out of warranty and the motherboards were fairly
costly. Many complaints about having to pay shipping for service. However, I don't believe
their machines are bad, and the majority of people don't have problems with them, it's
the few that do who standout on the Internet these days, but it shows some of their
shortcomings with their service and support.

I won't buy another Everlast myself, which is kind of a shame as they have some of the
better low end machines that are capable of 6010. That was something I thought I needed
to have but I ended up buying this Primeweld which doesn't officially support it, some say
they can get it working. It's certainly not one of the shining points of the 225x. To get an
equivalent Everlast that would do 6010 would cost twice the price, and I really don't want
to deal with Everlast anymore. No complaints about my machine, my differences with them
are primarily with the way the handle service and support. Primeweld is willing to pay
shipping and seems to go out of their way to take care of the customers. This means
something to me. Am I getting an HTP or Miller? Of course not, it is yet another Chinese
machine that I'll need to sanitize before I use...

I think the AHP is also a pretty good machine from what I have read, but knowing that AHP
is partially owned by Oleg, and seeing some similar service/support issues with them, I
didn't want one of those either. Both Everlast and AHP remove bad reviews on Amazon,
so the reviews available are tainted.

The Primeweld has most of the features I need, including aluminum. I don't use stick a lot
but have a few project that stick will work better than tig for. I also like running stick and it
just requires much less equipment, so handy to have. I can get a separate stick machine
later, but the obvious ones are Everlast that can do 6010...that is probably not going to
happen.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Alan,

I have had my 225x for several months now and I am very happy with the machine. The Lincoln 175 was OK on thicker Aluminum but was not that good on the thinner gauge material. I was a professional welder from the mid 60's through the 70's building on and off road heavy equipment with all sorts of welding process, including a ton of aluminum work and the 225x is a really good machine on steel and aluminum. I have not used it on any stainless yet with TIG and I probably never will do any stick welding with it as I have other machines for that . Aside from all of the discussion on different machines and price ranges, for the money, especially my money it has been a great value and solid performer. Good luck on your decision.

Randy,

You slipped that in while I was typing!

I think I'll be pretty happy with it, just not sure if I will keep or sell my green weenie as
it does most of the stick I would need, although will not do 6010. I'm not sure that is a
deal breaker to be honest. I have a couple things I want to build for my sawmill, stick
would be preferred, but I could tig it if I want to. I have a bunch of other stuff to do in
the meantime, and tig is the primary need, I think the Primeweld will be able to handle
the tig requirement, no problem.

The only other machine that comes close in the price range is the AHP, and I won't buy
one of them primarily because they have an insestual relationship with Everlast. Primeweld
wins out on service and support, I haven't read a bad thing about that area for them. Plus
the fact they have a ck torch, touche to Primeweld again.

[Poland308]

What did(

Not a reprint. But I think your experience is a good reckoning. Even Miller ( I have a max star 210 in the shop for a warranty control board, that’s less than 6 months old and has maybe 20 hrs of arc time) has a percentage of failure. The true question comes down to when you have a failure (not if) how does the manufacturer handle it? If you buy a ( Top) manufacturer machine you may have already paid for the better service.