[Superiorwelding]

Steve,
The material is plain old A36. We did get the certs, heat and lot numbers with this material so it is all from the same batch.
The wire is Lincoln L-56 ER70S-6, .035. Again nothing out of the norm. As a side note, Lincoln advises using this or a lower quality wire for vertical up and pipe roots, the puddle is less fluid and thus less susceptible to dropping out or through.
I am not sure if I or they use anti-spatter. I might have here. I used it off and on throughout the testing processes. I know for a fact I used it on the 6" 6G test for SMAW as I didn't want the mess inside associated with stick welding. No problems there. I can ask if it was used by others. Curious though, what effect do you think that would have?

Mick,
There was no pre-heat and interpass temps were anywhere from 100-300*F. Tony would have to answer exactly what he used. I did the root and cover back to back with only wire brushing in between and let plate cool to the touch for the cover pass. Code allows min of 70*F if I remember correctly. Being that it is A36 no special requirements needed. All plates were air cooled, no quenching.
-Jonathan

[weldin mike 27]

If its just good old mild steel, its odd that it would become brittle or hard in any extreme way. I haven't done many destructive tests but it sounds as though you were right on it. The only one I can really weigh in on is the the 1 g mig, because I have seen failures at ultra sonic on welds like that. The were caused by using ..035 at voltage settings for .045 and laying in too much wire. And not arcing into the plate but " surfing" the wave of molten metal.

Mick

[Boomer63]

I have some steel around the shop that looks like 'regular old A36', but I happen to know it has a higher carbon content. I give it to the guys as practice V-groove material; but if they can pass with this material they can pass with 'regular old A36'!

I have a lot of guys fail the 3G GMAW short circuit (.035) in exactly the same way that these are failing ... humm ... I always attributed it to the fact that they weren't holding long enough on one side of the groove - not holding long enough to completely penetrate.

But what do I know? This is a very interesting thread, and I will be keeping an eye on it! So far, lots of very well thought out input!

[Superiorwelding]

Ok, we have been working on this all day today. Here is where we stand. I bought some Naval Jelly and we did our own etching of previous practice tests as well as one new one we did together to figure out what is going wrong. We did find a few things out. First, the WPS that I made up had a few flaws in it. I had wrote down the wrong amperage range and didn't have enough wire speed included to match the amperage range. Not a big deal but glad we found it. Next, we ran the test plate where you can see the three distinct weld and watched each other for techniques and travel speeds. We used my Lincoln 350MP (which everyone says runs better) set at 165 ipm, 21 volts and 85 amps. Now the first argument, I mean discussion was that I was running to low of a amperage. My rebuttal was I passed using these settings. While it might be on the low side, it can be done. So we each ran about 2.5" on the test plate and then cut them and etched. What was interesting was we all had a little fusion issues at the toe of the root, not a killer but still needs addressed. Two welds had serious fusion problems in the root pass and between the root and fill pass. My conclusion (after a heated debate) it it all falls back to technique. The sides are not being held long enough and from what I can see, cold lap caused by running up on the puddle of the weld.

So I included a few pics of the etching, I apologize for the pic quality, they were hard to get a good picture of. I will include comments under each picture of what you are looking at.

Also, this is pulse vertical up. Someone asked about that.

Again, any help is appreciated!!
-Jonathan

[Superiorwelding]

And here are the results of the cut and etch. It is hard to see everything in the pic.
-Jonathan

[Superiorwelding]

And for kicks, here is three previous practice tests we had laying around. The top is Welder C, middle welder A and the bottom welder B.
-Jonathan

[Superiorwelding]

Tony (hillbillywelder) asked me to post this on his behalf. This is a retake at 95 amps, 197 ipm and 22 volts . What do you think?
-Jonathan

[weldin mike 27]

Hey,

This is the exact test that we did at work. The easyest way I find to pass them is to open the gap to the max allowable, ours is 6mm. Then in your weave technique, make a upwards c motion like this ))))))))))) this will allow you to chew into fresh metal every time . And also turn the wire speed down till it seems that its almost too low, (almost hissing) this will allow the volts to do the penetrating with gravities help, and not force too much cold metal into the joint. Though this can cause issues with undercutting on the cap.

Mick

[Otto Nobedder]

I'm separating fly sh#t from pepper here, but there's a mis-print on the WPS...

Last item, "Trim".

In your pic, as well as the copy I recieved, there's a decimal misplacement. Using the example you posted in the pic, Trim range is expressed as .94 - .106, as opposed to 0.94 to 1.06

Just a minor detail. I'm still getting over my shock that the USPS got it to me today, as I was expecting tomorrow at the soonest.

I'm digesting the WPS specs tonight, and deciding how to proceed tomorrow, as none of my machines can meet the "pulse" requirement. I may experiment on some of our scrap leaning toward a "globular transfer" solution, and I even have a twisted idea in my brain for a "spray-arc" root in 3G.

Steve S

[Superiorwelding]

I'm separating fly sh#t from pepper here, but there's a mis-print on the WPS...

Last item, "Trim".

In your pic, as well as the copy I recieved, there's a decimal misplacement. Using the example you posted in the pic, Trim range is expressed as .94 - .106, as opposed to 0.94 to 1.06

Just a minor detail. I'm still getting over my shock that the USPS got it to me today, as I was expecting tomorrow at the soonest.

I'm digesting the WPS specs tonight, and deciding how to proceed tomorrow, as none of my machines can meet the "pulse" requirement. I may experiment on some of our scrap leaning toward a "globular transfer" solution, and I even have a twisted idea in my brain for a "spray-arc" root in 3G.

Steve S

Steve,
What's funny is I was talking to Lincoln Electric today and when I told them my trim settings they flipped. They were like "if your machine says .1 something we got a problem!" I neglected to fix it today even though I edited it. As you will see, the amp range and wire speed are the only other two items that changed. Thankfully I didn't change anything to drastic as to void my precious test. Thanks for pointing that out though!

I am surprised it made it already too. Take your time, no huge rush. I am thinking the best "test" will be to cut and etch. This seems to reveal the most. Doesn't show what effect the HAZ has but it gives enough info to let one know what needs changed.
If you need more plates let me know.
-Jonathan

[Otto Nobedder]

Jonathan,

What strikes me in the "cut and etch", is in most of those welds the original bevel seems clearly (almost "sharply" in some cases) visible, with very little penetration into the backer. A typical etch of that weld "should" show a roughly parabolic interaction line extending at least 30% into the backer.

I'm sorry I don't know more about pulse MIG. The etches are a better diagnostic tool than the bends.

Steve S

[Superiorwelding]

Steve,
We ran a few tests in our spare time today using higher amps. I believe we are in the 100-105 amp range now and we can see significant improvements, especially in the root penetration. I strongly believe that the cause of the fusion issues at the root is not having the arc cone focused enough. I played with the 350MP for quite a while and couldn't get it sharp enough to really focus right at the corner of the beveled edge. Although we can lay some beautiful welds down, they still have a brittle problem. We bent probably 6 pieces and ALL of them busted before the plunger was all the way down. Seriously baffled. We even went back on the paper work to make sure the correct material was ordered and from what I see it is.

Frustrated with the Lincoln I fired up the Fronius to see what I could do with it. This machine is completely new to me. We are demoing it for a while. As a side note I a HIGHLY impressed, at least as long as you are willing to learn all the functions. This is not the machine for the faint of heart. Anyway, we played for about a hour and got the arc dialed in pretty well. This machine has a little more control over the arc. I will run a plate Monday morning to see if it can do better. The Fronius has .045 loaded and if it works I will just write up a new WPS and move on. I still passed on the .035 WPS so at least the company had it and it can be revisited later.

I remember running Miller 350P's and feel they had a better ability to dial in the arc cone and length than the 350MP'S, maybe I just need to play with it more.

I am also considering a short circuit WPS but will have to see how much time I get after all of this.

Can't remember if I mentioned this but the testing lab told us that they have been doing this for 30 something years an have never had a problem like we are having on a 3G mig test, comforting huh?
-Jonathan

[Superiorwelding]

Hey,

This is the exact test that we did at work. The easyest way I find to pass them is to open the gap to the max allowable, ours is 6mm. Then in your weave technique, make a upwards c motion like this ))))))))))) this will allow you to chew into fresh metal every time . And also turn the wire speed down till it seems that its almost too low, (almost hissing) this will allow the volts to do the penetrating with gravities help, and not force too much cold metal into the joint. Though this can cause issues with undercutting on the cap.

Mick

Mick,
On all test pieces today we opened up our root to 5/16" which is the maximum allowed opening. It actually was better and gave us more dwell time on the sides. As expected, the cover pass was a little wider but diffidently manageable. While I am in no way arguing that turning the wire down won't work, my thoughts on that are we are looking for more amps for penetration, wouldn't turning the WFS down do just the opposite since it would effectively lower our amperage?
I will be cutting this plate apart Monday to etch and bend, will share results then.
-Jonathan

[weldin mike 27]

Hey,

That's exactly what I thought when we first started practicing the technique. It not a problem to reduce the current because you are not relying on the "punch" of the wirelike flat welding. The gravity draws the molten metal away from the root so having too much wire going in will cause a lumpy weld. The higher volts allows the heat you need with out letting the wire get in the way.

Mick

[weldin mike 27]

IMG_20140928_172825_908.jpg (56.56 KiB) Viewed 2147 times

Hey,

I procured some scrap test plates from work, and did a cut and etch at home (poorly) using Rust Converter. I couldn't get a very smooth polish with the limited discs I have here.

I don't know exactly who welded them, they may be different welders, but the same machine, a 500 amp cigweld transformer. And .045 S6 wire. One has a bigger root gap than the other.

Please note that neither of these passed visual, that's why I have them as passed ones go for x ray and don't come back

Mick

[Superiorwelding]

Tony worked on several test plates and finally figured out our problems. Originally we figured that we had lack of fusion and needed more amps. Along with more amps comes faster travel speed. After several test plates and bending them in house he settled on 265 ipm, 22.1 volts, trim set to 1.04, amps 100-106 with a travel speed of 6" inches per minute. This was successful on two separate test plates so they went ahead and finished out new test plates. We will send them in and cross our fingers. Now I will probably have to retake mine since we have altered the WPS so much but I will have to check for sure.
-Jonathan

[Otto Nobedder]

Excellent!

I did not get to play, again, because that NFPA70E class I was to take at 8AM, we weren't able to connect to. I took it at 1PM, so was an hour over my shift before it was finished, and have to take the test in the AM.

I do need to take pictures tommorow morning of a "bad gas" weld. Had a machine F^%& up Monday, and it reminded me of welding 308 MIG with pure argon by mistake once in the past. This AM, waiting on my (deferred) schooling, I ran a bead with the bottle, labeled "Tri-Mix", which sucked horribly, than swapped to a known-good bottle from another machine I'd used, and got a great bead with the exact same settings. Tagged that bottle "bad", and moved on. It's solid evidence that, "sometimes it's the gas."

Steve S

[jbrophy]

I just failed a 6g tube test for lack of penetration at Boilermakers union hall in Birmingham they need a boat load of welders tig and stick

[Superiorwelding]

I just failed a 6g tube test for lack of penetration at Boilermakers union hall in Birmingham they need a boat load of welders tig and stick

jbrophy,
Sorry to hear that my friend. Are you going to try it again? Where was your lack of fusion, root? What process were you using?
-Jonathan

[Superiorwelding]

I have not gave a update in a while. I am happy to report that this test was passed, finally using the specs mentioned earlier. We also have taken a few more test, one being a 4G MIG that I will get put up soon.
-Jonathan

[Otto Nobedder]

I apologize, Jonathan, for not following up on the coupons you sent me.

I've been struggling with how do do them in a way that remotely resembles the WPS you provided.

Since you seem to have solved your issues, perhaps I can experriment a bit. I think I'll try a globuar-transfer using a helium mix.

Steve S