[andygmac]

Just a random question, I'm getting ready to be shot down in flames lol
OK here goes....
How difficult is it to do a procedure qualification certificate weld, compared to a weld test weld?
See, I know that if I do the procedure qual, and it passes, I am then qualified for that weld ( and the firm who I sub contract myself out to pays for it hehe) but if I can't do the procedure test, then I have to do the 3F, 3G..... etc weld test (at my expense!)
Obviously, the former would be better for me financially
But I don't want to fail at the procedure qual test at the expense of my bread and butter customers!

Any replies gratefully received

Cheers Andy

[noddybrian]

There is no real difference in the welding part of it - essentially if you are doing a test piece for which an approved WPS already exists all you do is turn up prep the piece & weld it while being observed by a qualified inspector - he will want to look at aspects of your work throughout & provided you've practiced that joint before & don't fall out with the guy it will go off to have various tests done on it & you should pass - if you are trying to qualify a procedure the biggest hurdle is knowing what is wanted - ideally you need to work with a teaching facility who has experience that can assist you write your own WPS in a manner that the inspector likes to hear ! - on the day explain as you read through the procedurewith him hopefully he will agree in principal with what you intend to do - at this stage if he does'nt like it or wants to amend it let him - then do the weld as normal - it will need to be tested by a place that is favored by your insurance provider - they need to accept under advisement that the WPS is sound - then if the piece passes all relevant metallurgy testing the WPS is approved & your a hero ! & then only need to do a repeat test piece every 2years or whatever interval you insurance specifies - my mate has not done his renewal yet - but when he does I'll try to get a copy of the paper work - ( his WPS has already been approved though ).

[Otto Nobedder]

Excellent response!

I'll add that in "fully" qualifying a procedure, you'll need several test pieces, as the goal is to establish limits. Min/Max gap, land, filler size, voltage/current, etc., with the variables depending on the intended weldment type and process used. A WPS will have ranges for each of these variables, and anyone performing the specified weld has to stay within the ranges.

If you're the only one who will use the procedure, due to it being specific to your job and unneeded after, you *may* be able to qualify it with a single test piece and a single set of parameters.

Does this weld have to qualify under a particular code, or simply meet a client's specifications? The code books can be a great guide. ASME section IX is a dry read, but full of valuable guidelines for testing and qualifying pipe and vessel welds, for example.

Steve S

[andygmac]

Thanks for the excellent responses
As far as I know, the procedures will be written up and I will just have to weld them

That just sounded too easy to me lol
So I just have to keep on the right side of the inspector (which isn't too hard as I'm a nice chap ), and follow the potential procedure to the letter, and I should be home and dry?
And I will be a happy chap and have my certs, and my clients will be happy and have their procedures certified.
Happy days
Cheers guys

[noddybrian]

@ Otto -

the powers that be have decided that everyone in Europe has to comply with a common set of standards - kinda makes sense - in reality they are just making paper work for office people & creating problems for those actually doing some work - they basically said they no longer accept any American tests or procedures - what they want is to create a demand for overpriced training to qualify you for something you have already done - the OP does not need to create a new WPS as such or qualify the limits for it - what you have to do is re-write a known procedure that is already acceptable in language that is familiar to them & like - if they agree to it then usually one test piece will suffice - ( well 2 as they don't accept your 6G - to qualify for all position - one vertical up & one overhead is needed & usually if done single sided groove weld covers all other joints ) this then becomes your own procedure - previously you only needed to test using an appropriate WPS that could be ASME / AWS whatever you like that was easy to look up a spec for - now it's all down to you - if you can afford to get a Lloyds tester to oversee your test this over rides all other insurances & is usually accepted by the others - problem is there not many of them & they cost 3times as much as the rest ! - also your dealing with people often only just out of college who think their special as they don't get dirty to earn 6times your wages - the tester I knew got fed up with it & retired early !

[Otto Nobedder]

@ Otto -

the powers that be have decided that everyone in Europe has to comply with a common set of standards - kinda makes sense - in reality they are just making paper work for office people & creating problems for those actually doing some work - they basically said they no longer accept any American tests or procedures - what they want is to create a demand for overpriced training to qualify you for something you have already done - the OP does not need to create a new WPS as such or qualify the limits for it - what you have to do is re-write a known procedure that is already acceptable in language that is familiar to them & like - if they agree to it then usually one test piece will suffice - ( well 2 as they don't accept your 6G - to qualify for all position - one vertical up & one overhead is needed & usually if done single sided groove weld covers all other joints ) this then becomes your own procedure - previously you only needed to test using an appropriate WPS that could be ASME / AWS whatever you like that was easy to look up a spec for - now it's all down to you - if you can afford to get a Lloyds tester to oversee your test this over rides all other insurances & is usually accepted by the others - problem is there not many of them & they cost 3times as much as the rest ! - also your dealing with people often only just out of college who think their special as they don't get dirty to earn 6times your wages - the tester I knew got fed up with it & retired early !

That does sound like a royal pain in the arse. I think you had discussed this before, but I hadn't paid attention to the OP's country of origin, and was answering like it was someone in the U.S. writing a new procedure.

Sounds like he's got it sorted out, though, so good luck to him on the actual testing!

Steve S

[noddybrian]

@andygmac

So long as the WPS is agreed with the insurer & is viable you should be fine - obviously the normal things of any test apply - get plenty of practice in ( particularly using the machine & rods you will have to test with ) get a good nights sleep before - give yourself plenty of time - get there early & relaxed - make a good impression with the tester - if you have any control over the material pay whatever it takes to get British made steel - absolutely no import cr#p- make sure you have a rod that will pass metallurgy - make sure it's dry - take care with prep of coupons - is it's a V prep cut them with a circular saw or mill them if possible to get a consistent angle / land - don't flame cut unless your going to grind back all the heat affected zone - take a good sharp pointed tool to rake the toes of any root runs - take a narrow wire brush also for the same reason - make sure you helmet has new cover glass to ensure good visibility - remember glasses if needed - remember comfortable gloves - don't be breaking in a new pair on the test - get comfortable when setting up - especially if doing overhead get it at a height you've practiced at - I'm sure there's more if we think about it long enough ( oh & wear "luck pants " )

Good luck & I hope you pass.

[noddybrian]

@ Otto

Yes it is a pain at the moment - but hopefully will eventually sort itself out - my previous comments were based on knowing he was also in the UK - some things are a bit different here - much of welding is universal - but not everything done in the US is applicable here - hence sometimes we likely find posts a little strange from people in other countries - I try only to comment if I feel I have some relevant experience but it may seem odd to some as the regular contributors here are mainly American - as long as we're all friendly a difference of opinion is OK though !

[andygmac]

Cheers for the great replies guys, much appreciated
Definitely be wearing the Lucky pants, (they may be a different colour after the test tho lol)
Will post my results, won't be doing tests for a couple of months tho, plenty of time for me to practice, if my workload allows.

[Jared]

The company i work for has just called in an independent welding inspector/consultant to try and sort out the latest requirements for re-approval / re-qualification / prolongation as the EU rules have made the whole process so complicated..

We had a Lloyds inspector admit the because of some of the EU changes even they were unsure about what was required....all to do with the wording of certain documents and how that wording was interpreted...

[noddybrian]

Now that I'm surprised about - usually Lloyds can call the shots as they are often the "ultimate" insurer underwriting most others- if they can't get it sorted you know it's a cluster f#ck ! - Brussels has alot to answer for !

[Jared]

A lot of the confusion seems to have arisen from the change from BS EN 287-1 to the new ISO9606-1....I could not find the info at work as our Quality guy is on holiday, but from another forum i found the same query that we had and Lloyds were unsure of ....
Quote

To me it says the welder shall be retested every 3 years (9.3a) but every 2 years there must be two volumetric reports (or destructive tests) during the last 6 months in order to revalidate for a further 2 years (9.3b). So......... that would be at the 18 month point and the 2 year point! why would you have to do this if a year later you will be retesting anyway??? or am i just confusing myself here???

Like you say ...Brussels has a lot to answer for and we have to pay for that


A bit hard going , but i did find a guide to moving from 287 to 9609 !!

http://www.ewf.be/media/documentosDocs/ ... o-9606.pdf

[Frosty]

You guys over across the pond need to keep this whole change in code over there, because if these knuckleheads here in the states get wind of your guys change, they to will want to screw it all up to! Dam governments!

[coldman]

Here in oz we are a bit different to else where. Once you have your certification you have it for life. Of course on the big projects or on the pipeline you have to pass their weld test and specification which is then held permanently with your weld history on the job. Private guys like me that sail under the international radar on smaller jobs qualify our own procedure to satify our own insurers or customer quality assurance requirements. There are many boilermakers out there working only on the big projects without certification because they have to retest on each new project they start at. There is a push on by testing companies to privatise certification in which case we would adopt the American system. So far our government is resisting this push.

[Logosweld]

There is no real difference in the welding part of it - essentially if you are doing a test piece for which an approved WPS already exists all you do is turn up prep the piece & weld it while being observed by a qualified inspector - he will want to look at aspects of your work throughout & provided you've practiced that joint before & don't fall out with the guy it will go off to have various tests done on it & you should pass - if you are trying to qualify a procedure the biggest hurdle is knowing what is wanted - ideally you need to work with a teaching facility who has experience that can assist you write your own WPS in a manner that the inspector likes to hear ! - on the day explain as you read through the procedurewith him hopefully he will agree in principal with what you intend to do - at this stage if he does'nt like it or wants to amend it let him - then do the weld as normal - it will need to be tested by a place that is favored by your insurance provider - they need to accept under advisement that the WPS is sound - then if the piece passes all relevant metallurgy testing the WPS is approved & your a hero ! & then only need to do a repeat test piece every 2years or whatever interval you insurance specifies - my mate has not done his renewal yet - but when he does I'll try to get a copy of the paper work - ( his WPS has already been approved though ).

totally agreed this should sounds good

[micbanand]

I do not see that big a different in the new iso standard.

but if no longer in some points allowing a C caracter.

I do not like thinking of making a HLO 45 in ø48mm 5mm thicknes. with stick. (used a lot in boilers and so)

They outfased the ø82 8mm pipe about 10 years ago. here in Denmark.
still possible if firm cert. but not as a private school cert,