Welding Tips and Tricks

Hey,

Anyone here ever used one of these suckers? Made by petrogen i think. Never seen or heard of these in Aus. I have read about them on the internet site.

Mick

Never seen one before - or even heard of it - but I'm very interested as Acetylene is due to be phased out in the UK ( apparently ) would certainly like to hear any members experience with it - funny thing is the first Google result I read was from the suppliers in Aus ! the thing is on Ebay as a complete kit or just a torch - I'm just not sure how I feel about blowing pure oxygen & gasoline around - it sounds like a recipe for a rocket motor or bomb ( so has Otto tried this ? - oh that's right - he's not a rocket scientist ! ) but kerosine & oxygen has been used in rockets with mixed results - I like the idea of it assuming it works - but I'd still want to gas weld with it - & that still uses ever escalating priced oxygen - so I still would like to know what happened to the HHO welder / cutter concept ( like the H2O 200 ).

I HAVE soldered and brazed with a gasoline/air blowtorch... Pump it up like a Coleman lantern... That works like a charm, but regular auto gas makes a lot of carbon in these things, as each component of a blended fuel like gasoline requires a slightly different mixture. "White gas", like Coleman lantern fuel was preferred, and I'd expect the same for a gas/oxy rig.

I'd be highly suspicious of using long-chain hydrocabons in anything but a cutting torch (and that's still a "maybe", depending on the dressing required after the cut), and I'm equally dubious about a liquid fuel, in the event of a spill/severed line.

I have NOT yet taken the time to search this... If you have a link to it, I'd appreciate it, otherwise, I'll do a search later, because I'm curious now..

Thanks,

Steve S

Thanks, Mick,

Having a look...

Wow!

I'm even more skeptical. I've been more impressed by late-night TV infomercials.

I'm going to have to dig deeper.

Steve S

Ill put up a link to the Aus ebay site. The speil there has it the greatest invention since the harnessing of nuclear fission.

I have an old Coleman lantern that works on gasoline. Coleman initially denied making it, until I sent them a photograph and model number, then I was told that these were not legal to use anymore because of people using them in enclosed spaces and getting sick. I guess that all of the additives in gasoline can be pretty nasty. Anyway, I still have it and it works pretty much the same way that the Naptha (white gas) lanterns do. So, I don't see any reason why you couldn't weld with gasoline.

i've been hearing about the gasoline cutting torch on and off for at least 30 years but never encountered one on any job-site i was on. this is just my UN-educated opinion- i don't need to have extremely flammable materials near where i'm welding. there's trouble enough watching out for fires without adding the extra risk of having gas spill on my clothes just prior to me firing up the torch or striking an arc which is probably one major reason the gasoline torch hasn't caught on in the industry.

Without seeing one it's hard to judge - I agree in principal with your comment on safety - but have you seen the Chinese demo video where they deliberately burn a hole in the tank & weld it up ? - the tank is apparently filled with something like " Explosafe" or similar material & won't come to much harm - agreed on the fuel pipe - but it maybe possible to use a very tough pipe & the petrol is a smallish quantity at very low pressure - it's probably no worse than a burst hose with acetylene coming out of a 3/8" bore at 15psi - plus they claim it's impossible to get "flash back"- any flame stopping at the fuel mixer valve on the torch - unable to travel back into the liquid fuel.

On the plus side when you run out mid job of acetylene how difficult / far away is a refill - gasoline is never a problem - I'll look up the current price from BOC here as I've not bought any recently - but the cost saving is enormous - and a full size BOC cylinder weighs almost 200lbs - would you rather carry that around or a gallon or 2 of gas ?

I'm not quite going to buy one yet as it's unclear if this is a gimmick or serious useful tool - never seen spare nozzles or how much / where to get & the biggest thing is what is the flame doing to the metal - will it contaminate a wide zone that then needs extensive grinding before a weld can be made with confidence - even if it's not a tested piece no one wants to go back because all the welds you did have cracked.

noddybrian wrote:Without seeing one it's hard to judge - I agree in principal with your comment on safety - but have you seen the Chinese demo video where they deliberately burn a hole in the tank & weld it up ? - the tank is apparently filled with something like " Explosafe" or similar material & won't come to much harm - agreed on the fuel pipe - but it maybe possible to use a very tough pipe & the petrol is a smallish quantity at very low pressure - it's probably no worse than a burst hose with acetylene coming out of a 3/8" bore at 15psi - plus they claim it's impossible to get "flash back"- any flame stopping at the fuel mixer valve on the torch - unable to travel back into the liquid fuel.

On the plus side when you run out mid job of acetylene how difficult / far away is a refill - gasoline is never a problem - I'll look up the current price from BOC here as I've not bought any recently - but the cost saving is enormous - and a full size BOC cylinder weighs almost 200lbs - would you rather carry that around or a gallon or 2 of gas ?

I'm not quite going to buy one yet as it's unclear if this is a gimmick or serious useful tool - never seen spare nozzles or how much / where to get & the biggest thing is what is the flame doing to the metal - will it contaminate a wide zone that then needs extensive grinding before a weld can be made with confidence - even if it's not a tested piece no one wants to go back because all the welds you did have cracked.

i'm going to let someone else do the field research on this one. on another note~ if you've got the acetylene cranked up to 15 psi maybe the gasoline torch would be safer and cheaper? 15psi is a waste of acetylene and could be dangerous but that's only my very humble opinion.

Good point, and I missed that one...

There's a reason the Acy. gauge red-lines at 15.

I've never needed more than 7, with a BIG rosebud.

Steve S

Otto Nobedder wrote:Good point, and I missed that one...

There's a reason the Acy. gauge red-lines at 15.

I've never needed more than 7, with a BIG rosebud.

Steve S

i worked with a lot of old school german and scandinavian craftsmen when i was starting out in the early 70's. they would only tell you once how to do something. after that the lesson was reinforced with a punch to the head. setting the gauges was an early lesson that i'll never forget.

One concern I have would be pressure regulation on the gasoline, a tank of acetylene always has positive pressure. There would have to be something in the system to atomize the gasoline and pressure to keep it in a vapor state.. I guess we do it with propane all the time. Propane's flash point is quite a bit lower than gasoline though. Sending liquid to an Oxygen rich atmosphere would be a very bad idea. I've seen a guy in a scrap yard one time pull on his hose and turned the unsecured propane tank on it's side and things got ugly in no time.

In my younger days I hauled additives for gasoline and there were not too many of them that I would want to stand over and breath the fumes while either welding or cutting with. They add things like xylene, toluene, benzine, drip gas just to name a few that I can think of. Yikes!

P.S. setting your guage to over 15 psi starts picking up the carbide from the bottom of the cylinder just like laying it on it's side will while using acetylene.

Len

The oxy-gas cutting rigs are popular with local fire dept rescue squads here(Chicago), for building collapses and such. They can get gasoline from anywhere and pull oxygen bottles off the ambulances and keep going. Pricy stuff. S/F....Ken M

@ Braehill.

Unless things are different across "the pond" ( and I don't think so ) the liquid you referred to in acetylene cylinders is acetone - the gas is dissolved in it - ( carbide as you mentioned is calcium carbide from which the acetylene gas is produced by reaction with water prior to bottling - the reason regulators go up only to 15psi is that at higher pressures acetylene becomes explosive - this is why when oxy fuel cutting was used under water acetylene was not used ( except at very limited depth mostly working on submerged hull parts ) because you could not increase the delivery pressure at the surface safely to provide working pressures at the torch when even at moderate depth.
I do agree though that volatile fuels & pure oxygen appear a dangerous combination.

Brian,
You are correct on all points and for the life of me I coudn't think of the word "acetone" while I was typing that. My Appologies. You would think with it being part of the word acetylene it would have come to me. Actually the smell of the carbide used while producing it was all I could think of.

Len

@ Braehill ( Len )

No worries - we all do it - I try to re-read my posts out loud before submitting ! & I can never work out how my fingers manage to type stuff in the wrong order / spelling / or it just don't make sense even to me & I knew what I meant !

I know what you mean about the smell from carbide - but I don't know what they add to it when bottled - I guess it's like propane or natural gas - it's got something very strong / unpleasant & distinctive so your aware of leaks.

With the price of acetylene now I wish I could find one of the "old school" generators from before it was common bottled ( sadly I can just remember this ) - they were simple enough to make but I just don't remember enough about them - maybe other members out there can - or know of a downloadable plan - as I have about 150lbs of calcium carbide somewhat old but useable all in sealed plastic bags in 2 large barrels ! - it would probably last make enough gas to last my lifetime ! the only drawback would be having to use the really old torches that had low pressure mixers.

Hello all,

I am the Product Specialist here at Petrogen and wanted to make myself available to questions regarding our system. I have been made aware of this forum and the discussions regarding Oxy-Gasoline and our Petrogen systems. First let me say we greatly appreciate the interest shown in our products and systems. It is parties like you, that look to research before you buy, that we aim to enlighten with as much information as possible. As some of you may know our system is quite unique and beneficial to the hot cutting industry, but still relatively low on the radar and still widely misunderstood. I again would like to make myself available to any questions there might be, and would be happy to arrange training for interested parties.

NOTE: Though we are located in the States (Colorado Springs, Colorado), we would be happy to open a spot in our training clinics for visitors or travelers. We are also anticipating a updated website launch in the coming months that will have the option for live online training.

Secondly, I just wanted to supply a brief overview of our systems to help answer some questions, and hopefully dispel any misconceptions.

Here at Petrogen we engineer, assemble and distribute, advanced cutting torch systems. What makes our systems unique is our use of liquid fuels as the fuel for the preheat flame. Many associate gasoline with Petrogen systems; which is the fuel our systems come standard ready to cut with, though, we have developed a Multi-Fuel Adapter, originally for the military, but now available for all customers. This Multi-Fuel Adapter enables our systems to take advantage of fuels such as diesel, kerosene and of coarse military JP-8/JP-5. These liquid fuels are an important aspect to our systems and have many advantages in not only power and savings, but also largely in safety.

It is the liquid fuel that makes our systems so safe. This is due to the liquid fuel staying a liquid from the Liquid Fuel Tank all the way to the head of the Torch. This way of delivering fuel through the torch system prevents the ability of a fuel line back flash; as it is the vapor of the liquid fuel that is flammable, not the liquid itself. This delivery method also promotes the longevity of the torch and tip.

Having the torch head be the mixing point for the fuel and oxygen enables the vapor created to cool both the torch head and tip, allowing our tips to last mush longer (a year or so, even with heavy use). You will see the recommendation of "Run-it-Rich" associated with our torch procedures. This is very much do to the benefits it has with keeping the torch and tip cool, but also providing the best flame to ignite and maintain ignition with the cutting surface.

The last benefit I will touch on (but certainly not the LAST benefit) is that liquid fuels burn hot, about 6000 degrees. Also 100% oxidize the ferrous metals (Based on oxygen purity. A general rule of thumb is that for every % of oxygen purity reduced, you can expect to see 3-5% of reduced speed). With liquid fuel it not only burns hot, but also throughout the flame. This offers a much quicker ignition of the cutting surface and also enables the 14" stacked steel cuts that you may have seen videos of. With regards to the oxidization, sparks created are far less hot and dangerous. Also, little to no slag is created, again a good safety aspect and also provides a clean cut with minimal to no cleanup needed should welding follow the operation. Though please note, because the liquid fuel 100% oxidizes its cut, the torch is not suitable for welding.

For any questions I will refer back to this forum to address any comments, and I will also take questions at jfierro@petrogen.com. I again, appreciate all the interest, and hope that I have shed some insightful light to those curious minds.

Respectfully,

J.J. Fierro
Product Specialist & In-House Graphic Designer

Many thanks for joining & the information in your post - I know several people interested in the concept but there is very little known about it - the members here range from hobbyists up to aerospace tech guys & so far no one has posted about using one or even seeing one - makes me wonder what trades you market to.

I'm in the UK & have found very little of your website's content works here - also the only video I've seen of your product is very short & does'nt really tell me much - I hope to see a better version when you update your site.

Would it be possible to loan a set to one of the welding guys who upload regularly on Utube to get some " real world " testing on the product & hopefully some unbiased assessment of it's capabilities - also to answer some common questions like - do I need one as I already have a plasma cutter - is it good for general heating / pre-heating parts - does the nature of the flame create metallurgical issues & for what distance from the cut if the cut part is to be welded / tested - is it worth the cost if it's only good for cutting scrap metal compared with using propane - is there a welding torch option / can I braze with it ?

So maybe see if Jody wants to try one out - if not chances are most people on this forum watch videos from several other Utube guys.

1 " The other Tig guy " ( wait while I put my gloves on ! )
2 "The young guy " ( yee-ha !)
3 " The young guys" new best mate ( the un- pronounceable ! )
4 " The artist guy"

Hey,

Thank you most kindly for joining our group. It was me that contacted you, and im glad to see that you honoured my request.

Mick

"Many thanks for joining & the information in your post - I know several people interested in the concept but there is very little known about it - the members here range from hobbyists up to aerospace tech guys & so far no one has posted about using one or even seeing one - makes me wonder what trades you market to."

We do market to quite a diverse number of trades. Though, we have not been able to focus much on marketing lately, due to growing demands. We are however aiming to have an updated website with social media outlets to go live in the coming months.

"I'm in the UK & have found very little of your website's content works here - also the only video I've seen of your product is very short & does'nt really tell me much - I hope to see a better version when you update your site.

Would it be possible to loan a set to one of the welding guys who upload regularly on Utube to get some " real world " testing on the product & hopefully some unbiased assessment of it's capabilities"

We do have a distributor in the U.K. by the name of Searchwise. They would be a great point of contact for supplies, or perhaps, to inquire about a possible demonstration. As for videos, we are planning on making many more for both training/educational purposes and for demonstration purposes. We will also have live online training available with the launch of our updated website. This will allow users and others to call in and ask questions which they can have answered both verbally and visually on their computer monitor. Though it is not our policy to loan equipment out, I can provide reports from the Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA), the Department of Energy (DOE), and the Federal Energy Technology Center (FETC) to reference.

"- also to answer some common questions like - (1.) do I need one as I already have a plasma cutter - (2.) is it good for general heating / pre-heating parts - (3.) does the nature of the flame create metallurgical issues & for what distance from the cut if the cut part is to be welded / tested - (4.) is it worth the cost if it's only good for cutting scrap metal compared with using propane - (5.) is there a welding torch option / can I braze with it ?"

1. It depends on how thick the material is that you need to cut, and the outcome you are looking for. Based on my knowledge of plasma cutters they are efficient and clean with 1" - 2" thicknesses, though going thicker can be problematic. Also, from my understanding they are very temperamental and require quite a bit of maintenance and require special conditions. As for our torch system, all of our torches have the capabilities of cutting up to 14" of stacked steel, and with a fluent operator, this can be done with quite a clean out come. Our systems do require their recommended maintenance, and should be stored properly, though the conditions for which they may be used can be quite staggering.

2. Yes, we have a specific tip designed just for this purpose, Tip size "L" (Large Heat). Also, as I touched on before, one of the advantages of using the liquid fuel is it's ability to burn hot, and throughout, allowing the heating process to move along quite quickly.

3. Coupling distance may vary upon the cut, though, if you are using the appropriate tip and the right PSI, that distance can range from a quarter to a full inch while still executing a clean cut. A side note, the coupling distances you are able to achieve with our system, is one of the reasons operators are able to get a year pulse of hard use out of their cutting tips.

4. I would say it is, right off the bat you'll save 30% on your oxygen consumption. Though, for us the safety aspect of it is worth the switch.

5. You are able to braze with our systems, though welding is not achievable. Ironically, the reason you are unable to weld with it, does make welding that much easier once you have made a cut.

Thank you for your interest noddybrian

Thank you most kindly, yet again for taking the time to visit our forum and provide fabulous information .

Mick

Yes - as Mick said - thank you very much for the answers to those questions - I'm sure many others on this forum are interested by this product - hopefully a member will buy one & review it here as I cannot justify / afford to right now - but it's on my list of future purchases.