Welding Tips and Tricks

Guys,

Having a tough time pondering this, and was wondering if anyone can help push me over the edge either way on which tool is more useful.

I didn't think I would be interested in a Plasma Cutter, and have been planning to get a Cold Saw to cut Miters. I can't buy both at the moment, so trying to decide between these two.

For a Plasma Cutter I'm actually considering the Primeweld CUT60. I saw a pretty good review and it was given pretty high praise for a Plasma Cutter priced under $1000, the price is actually $649 shipped. Primeweld has these in stock. Here's the review I watched. Not a very scientific review, basically a thickness test from someone that has tested a fair amount of Plasma Cutters.

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My alternative is the Evolution S380CPS, which is the 15" Cold Cut Saw, but ships with a 14" Carbide Toothed Blade. This model has the heavier cast base, list is $489, but you can get these for $440 with a coupon for signing up to evolutiontools.com. These are unfortunately not in stock and were supposed to be in stock last Friday, but still nothing. I've been watching on the Evolution website.

https://store.evolutionpowertools.com/products/s380cps

My gut tells me the Plasma would be way more useful in the big picture, but that it would be less useful in regard to cutting miters that were weld ready. But this I'm not sure of and if any of you have experience cutting miters on 1/8" or even 1/4" tube. In the video above the guy is able to cut 3/4" so I'm guessing it will be able to cut through 1/4" tube (1/2" for both sides).

So what say some of you more experienced fabricators? Even though the Plasma is about 50% more in cost, I'm more concerned with getting a more useful tool. Eventually I would probably get a Cold Saw, and it would be easier to scrape together $440 in the future of course.

For me I would go with the cold saw first. Being able to cut accurate miters would be a big plus for me before I got a plasma cutter.

I don't have a cold saw, yet, but I've got a Evolution Rage3 miter saw which I have been using for wood working. I'm planning to use it to cut up some steel tube in the coming week so will see how that goes. But the idea of a cold saw still sounds appealing due to it's bigger blade and cutting capacity.

I want to get a plasma cutter at some point though...

Hi Alan,, I have a plasma cutter and it took me some time and practice to get used to the machine. I also use a saw for cutting aluminum and it also took some getting used to.
The plasma cutter will cut circles and other designs. It does require air hook up with clean - DRY air to help the consumables to last. Should you need portability, you can use a bottle of nitrogen for cutting. Should you go the plasma, make sure you have all the consumables in stock.
I am impressed with the primeweld unit.
hope this helps

A saw is going to be more useful IMHO. Plasma cutters shine where you would have used an oxy fuel torch to do the cutting or in free hand cutting out of designs in thinner materials/sheet metal, or with an automated plasma cutting table. But for everyday welding projects and ESPECIALLY anything with a miter, a saw will be faster than a hand held plasma cutter, due to less set up time, less cleanup time, and more repeatability between cuts.

Dry cut. Cold saws use coolant and turn something like 100 RPM.

Oscar wrote:Dry cut. Cold saws use coolant and turn something like 100 RPM.

and cold saws are much more $$$$
not trying to split hairs, but there is a difference.

If you're going to be fabricating then the dry cut saw is the way to go, I really don't see comparing these two as apples to apples, so you have to think about what you need more considering the capabilities/advantages of each.

The plasma couldn't replicate the precise and cleans cuts of the saw, and the saw can't compete with the freedom a plasma cutter brings (in cutting shapes).

LtBadd wrote:

Oscar wrote:Dry cut. Cold saws use coolant and turn something like 100 RPM.

and cold saws are much more $$$$
not trying to split hairs, but there is a difference.

If you're going to be fabricating then the dry cut saw is the way to go, I really don't see comparing these two as apples to apples, so you have to think about what you need more considering the capabilities/advantages of each.

The plasma couldn't replicate the precise and cleans cuts of the saw, and the saw can't compete with the freedom a plasma cutter brings (in cutting shapes).

Yup, I agree; but I would like to make one insight (even though the dry cut saw is the way to go for his needs it seems).

As stated, a dry cut saw does not have the degrees of freedom that a plasma cutter has. Even so, a plasma could in theory do everything a dry cut saw does (including clean, and somewhat precise cuts limited by the kerf-width), except that it would not be easy nor feasible to obtain since one would have to make jigs or guides to run the plasma cutter tip down the correct path. It would take 10x as long to cut a 45° miter on a plasma, but technically it can be done. But yea, get the Evo saw.

Thanks to everyone who replied, I have been of the same impression for quite a while, and as I said I have been watching the Evo site and have talked to them, am signed up with a 10% discount coupon and have been waiting for the Evo to get in stock to buy it...

I do agree that for what I want the saw seems the way to go...the other problem with the Plasma I didn't get into but was curious if anyone would mention it is that to be more useful you really need a CNC table with the Plasma to make it really useful, but the cost of a CNC table is getting up in cost and probably more than I want to spend at the moment.

I should point out, I know that cold saw is a subjective term, but my understanding why they call these dry cutting saws cold saws is that the material stays cold, opposed to in the past where a cold saw used coolant, say a Hammond or Marvell. But these new generation of dry cutting cold saws are really just a chop saw with a carbide toothed blade running at a slower RPM.

I'm still waiting for stock to arrive now...

If you are in a shop where the saw or the plasma is hooked up & ready to work just by flipping a switch, (Mine is field work - drag it out of the tool box, hook it up, rig up stands to support materials, etc), I would be hard pressed to decide which I would choose. I would probably keep the saw @ 45 degrees, & use the plasma for straight cuts. If you have used a torch for 90% of your cutting over the years, it wouldn't be a big deal to lay it out square & torch it, touch it up with grinder & weld it up.
I don't build nuclear plants though so tolerance isn't tight.

TraditionalToolworks wrote:.the other problem with the Plasma I didn't get into but was curious if anyone would mention it is that to be more useful you really need a CNC table with the Plasma to make it really useful, but the cost of a CNC table is getting up in cost and probably more than I want to spend at the moment.

The moment you need to slice up ¼" or thicker and you can't get the part into the Evo saw, you'll wish you had a plasma cutter as you use your cut-off wheel in your grinder. Besides, it's just freakin neat!

After looking at the evo a bit more it seems this (the link TTW provided) is a new version of the evo380, it is now the S380CPS

LtBadd wrote:After looking at the evo a bit more it seems this (the link TTW provided) is a new version of the evo380, it is now the S380CPS

They made a couple changes. From what I understand they added 1" to the capacity, so it can handle a 15" blade, although they ship it with a 14" blade. The 15" blade is not cheap at $150.

They also added some pin stops for the miter, which is one of the reasons I've been favoring this over the Fein Slugger.

Also, not sure how this related to the older evo380, the base is made of cast, opposed to the newer S380CPSL (Light ???) which has a stamped steel base.

Other than these minor features I think they're pretty similar, old vs. new.

TraditionalToolworks wrote:The 15" blade is not cheap at $150.

They can be had for a lot less.

Do you already have an Oxy-Fuel rig? I'm guessing you do, but If not I'd definitely get the Plasma first.

But you need some kind of accurately cutting saw, if you don't already have a horizontal bandsaw a dry cut will save so much time if you do anything with a level of precision. Now if you have a CNC table and a large plasma power source yes you can do much more with it, and make just as clean and percise cuts as you could with any saw, but talk about expensive, the price of a dry cut saw is basically the tax or shipping you'd pay on a CNC table and you'd probably still use the saw on certain things if you had both.

Also in my opinion, it cut 1" just fine, I just don't think even with plasma 4 separate plates cut the same as one, and the travel speed is just exponentially slower with plasma, if he had traveled a bit slower it would've been fine

sbaker56 wrote:Do you already have an Oxy-Fuel rig? I'm guessing you do, but If not I'd definitely get the Plasma first.

I do have a small set, the acet is only like 20 cu.ft. and I think the oxygen is like 30-40 cu.ft. Not sure of the exact sizes, but small and fairly portable, I keep them at a yard I rent but can get them in a pinch.

sbaker56 wrote:But you need some kind of accurately cutting saw, if you don't already have a horizontal bandsaw a dry cut will save so much time if you do anything with a level of precision.

I do have a Wilton 7x14, it's ok, could use some TLC, but not too bad. Miters are hit/miss, IMO, sometimes they are good, sometimes require some touchup to get the angles correct. I just fitted up a frame that was less than stellar from it.

sbaker56 wrote:Now if you have a CNC table and a large plasma power source yes you can do much more with it

One other problem is power. I currently have a 30 amp 240 circuit. My new shop will have plenty of single and 3 phase but my current home is limited. I plan to keep my metalworking and welding at my current home. I could probably feel comfortable upgrading the circuit to a 40 amp, but I don't know about 50 amp which it seems the CUT60 would require.

Also, I'm limited on my compressors at this home, I currently have 2, one a Ingersoll Rand Garage Mate (26 gallon) and a California Tools 20 gallon. Neither real suited for the air needed to drive a plasma table. IR is about 6-7cfm at 90psi and CT is about the same.

In really thinking this through I think the Evolution saw is going to be first. Will produce more precise cuts which is what I want and easily run at my current home.

sbaker56 wrote:Also in my opinion, it cut 1" just fine, I just don't think even with plasma 4 separate plates cut the same as one, and the travel speed is just exponentially slower with plasma, if he had traveled a bit slower it would've been fine

Yeah, it was close. I don't work with such thick material for the most part. More tube and smaller stuff for tool making or other smaller jobs.

Thanks for your comments.

You don't necessarily have a decent immediately at hand Oxy-Acetylene rig then but while I'm not opposed to playing the duty cycle wiring game myself the 30amp circuit definitely presents an issue that wouldn't be present with a dry cut saw as does not having at least a 30 gallon compressor, though I'd assume the Ingersol Rand has a decent recharge rate.

I'd get the saw because the Plasma is inevitably going to be an acquisition later on as you expand or just keep with it I might be able to cut tubing with a torch fairly accurately, but it's the one thing I'd rather cut with even an abrasive saw, if I worked mostly or if even a significant minority of my work was with it, I'd get the dry cut without even a second thought for the plasma personally.

sbaker56 wrote:not having at least a 30 gallon compressor, though I'd assume the Ingersol Rand has a decent recharge rate.

The IR is ok, but it's small. I have another 60 gallon compressor at my yard, but will probably move that to my new shop. I don't know yet, it may come home but it's only a single stage, yet, it does produce plenty of CFM.

sbaker56 wrote:I might be able to cut tubing with a torch fairly accurately, but it's the one thing I'd rather cut with even an abrasive saw

Not me, I can't wait to sell my abrasive saw. There's no reason I would cut tube with a torch to be honest, I have a horizontal bandsaw and a portaband as well as a 6" Metabo with cut-off wheels. The torch is not going to get me clean miters, and the abrasive saw is going to leave a lot of slag (or whatever it's called) on the cut. To be honest, I don't cut too much with my torch, I use it mostly for heating and/or removing stuck bolts. I can heat treat with it and dunk in water (W1) or oil (O1, other high carbon). I also use it for brazing cast iron using brass.

Eventually you'll just acquire everything; it's just the nature of the game.

for me, in order:

1. 2009- Northern Tool Abrasive saw
2. 2010 - Eastwood versacut 40
3. 2015 - Oxy-acetylene (three 75 ft³ Acet manifold'ed/one 125 ft³ Oxy)
4. May 2016 - Klutch 7x12 wet bandsaw
5. Dec 2016 - Evolution Rage 2 carbide dry cut
6. Dec 2016 - Porter Cable Abrasive saw (gave the NT saw to my dad)
7. Dec 2018 - HTP Microcut 875sc

wondering what else I can add...

Oscar wrote:Eventually you'll just acquire everything; it's just the nature of the game.

Indeed I will, at least that is my plan.

My plan is probably not like other people, I strive for a complete shop in the end, and that goes for woodworking, metalworking, blacksmithing, leather and even stained glass. I strive to be able to build whatever I want. As my name implies, I favor traditional crafting, but metalworking is more modern, and the main reason for my interest is that if I had to blacksmith the metalwork I wanted, it would take me forever. So, machining and welding fits that area void to save time.

I run into a fair amount of adversity because I'm not a professional, and unfortunately I find many of the tradespeople to be less than stellar with their people and online skills, so tend to clash heads with people. That much I understand. I don't mean to, but it happens. I offend some, and some offend me...

In the end I want to be able to turn raw timber into furniture, build cabinets, tables, chairs...be able to turn steel into useful projects like a driveway gate, railing, long lasting pieces...and be able to create pieces of what will be a custom home and shop. How far I take it, I have no clue. How long I live, I have no clue. I just know I have a dream and part of that dream is to have a shop that I can do whatever I want, when I want, and how I want.

I have a fair amount of machines and I just have interest in tools in general, they are the means to the end for me. I want one of each.

TraditionalToolworks wrote:

Oscar wrote:Eventually you'll just acquire everything; it's just the nature of the game.

Indeed I will, at least that is my plan.

My plan is probably not like other people, I strive for a complete shop in the end, and that goes for woodworking, metalworking, blacksmithing, leather and even stained glass. I strive to be able to build whatever I want. As my name implies, I favor traditional crafting, but metalworking is more modern, and the main reason for my interest is that if I had to blacksmith the metalwork I wanted, it would take me forever. So, machining and welding fits that area void to save time.

I run into a fair amount of adversity because I'm not a professional, and unfortunately I find many of the tradespeople to be less than stellar with their people and online skills, so tend to clash heads with people. That much I understand. I don't mean to, but it happens. I offend some, and some offend me...

In the end I want to be able to turn raw timber into furniture, build cabinets, tables, chairs...be able to turn steel into useful projects like a driveway gate, railing, long lasting pieces...and be able to create pieces of what will be a custom home and shop. How far I take it, I have no clue. How long I live, I have no clue. I just know I have a dream and part of that dream is to have a shop that I can do whatever I want, when I want, and how I want.

I have a fair amount of machines and I just have interest in tools in general, they are the means to the end for me. I want one of each.

I think that's your best post yet Alan.

v5cvbb wrote:I think that's your best post yet Alan.

Thanks Kevin, I was actually thinking about deleting the post after I posted it, too many people will just get huffy about it most likely since the thread was about Plasma vs. Cold cutting saws. I'm sure others didn't like it as much as you.

I find welding forums are one of the worst in that regard, pretty hostile. Not as bad here as WeldingWeb, there sure are a lot of bitter old welders over there...and the worst forum I've been on is the Arborist chainsaw forum, that is one forum for folks with thick skin.

Anyway, I do plan to get the cold cutting Evo S380CPS, still watching for it to become in stock.

I do have the 380CPS, bought it in March/April this year. First impressions were pretty bad due to the fact the blade lost 3 teeth and chipped 4 others on the third cut. And after that I couldnt get a 90⁰ cut out of it. I contacted Evo, they said theyd send out a replacement blade but I haven't seen it yet...that was 2 months ago.

I dont really like the looks of their teeth as most metal cutting blades I've used in the past have a heavy shoulder behind the tooth to, 1 - support the tooth and, 2 - keep the next tooth from taking too big a bite and breaking off. The stock Evo blade looks more like a wood blade in my opinion.

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JayWal wrote:I do have the 380CPS, bought it in March/April this year. First impressions were pretty bad due to the fact the blade lost 3 teeth and chipped 4 others on the third cut. And after that I couldnt get a 90⁰ cut out of it. I contacted Evo, they said theyd send out a replacement blade but I haven't seen it yet...that was 2 months ago.

Just from the looks of it, you're not letting the saw do the cutting and it seems you might be trying to force the cut.

I would follow up with them on that blade, they do sell the blade for about $115. You can't expect your blade to get any better, but the fact that you can't get a 90 degree cut says that something is setup incorrectly with the saw, or more likely the blade is warped and will not keep a straight cut. Your case is pretty isolated, from what I've read.

FWIW, the blades are not actually theirs, they get them from Japan, which is a good things as the saw is made in China.

JayWal wrote:I dont really like the looks of their teeth

They certainly don't look good on your blade!

JayWal wrote:The stock Evo blade looks more like a wood blade in my opinion.

They are similar to a wood blade, but this is an entirely different saw, it's only 1450 RPM with carbide teeth. Most wood blades spin at more like 3450-3600 RPM. These are intended to cut steel. The 15" blade has 72 teeth rather than 66 which the 14" blade has.

Nah I used very little down pressure. Could be I'm at fault but if so then their blades are a heck of a lot more fragile then other dry cuts I've used.

I threw in a used dull blade I had lying around and it actually cut nicer and straighter than the factory Evo blade. Theres a big difference in the tooth design. I dont like the Evo design at all. I'll be trying Lenox or Diablo blades before another Evo.



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JayWal wrote:Nah I used very little down pressure. Could be I'm at fault but if so then their blades are a heck of a lot more fragile then other dry cuts I've used.

I threw in a used dull blade I had lying around and it actually cut nicer and straighter than the factory Evo blade. Theres a big difference in the tooth design. I dont like the Evo design at all. I'll be trying Lenox or Diablo blades before another Evo.

Jay,

I must be missing something here, why wouldn't you follow up to get a free blade? Doesn't cost you anything to follow up.