Perhaps contemplating a new, larger mill for next year....
Currently I have a Smithy 1220LTD, and it's fine for small projects. I just use it to do random facing/turning/facemilling/etc, just basic machining. I haven't even taught myself to cut threads with it yet, lol. Haven't had a need for that. Anyways, I'm considering the Smithy MI-409MZ for larger capacity. Also considering similar Precision Matthews PM-940m, possibly also the PM-835S.
Honestly, as they are, none are really an "upgrade" to what you have outside of their dimensions. Rigidity is the most critical factor in mills and lathes. Tolerances of the spindle, the gibs, etc determine quality of cut and repeatability.
If you were to buy one of these, first thing I'd do is yank the controller and replace it with a VFD. Then I'd use some concrete epoxy and improve the rigidity of the whole machine and base. You'd then have a machine you can use to your heart's content. And a 2HP motor won't let you get very far if you wish to hog some material, you'll want 3HP or better.
You should look around at some auctions near you or find a machinery reseller who deals in used equipment. You'll pay about the same and can walk away with much higher grade machines still in excellent functioning condition, just grimy and dirty. You'll save in the long run. Expect a quality machine to require 3 Phase power. Which some VFDs can produce for you as they can also be had with inverters onboard.
If you were to buy one of these, first thing I'd do is yank the controller and replace it with a VFD. Then I'd use some concrete epoxy and improve the rigidity of the whole machine and base. You'd then have a machine you can use to your heart's content. And a 2HP motor won't let you get very far if you wish to hog some material, you'll want 3HP or better.
You should look around at some auctions near you or find a machinery reseller who deals in used equipment. You'll pay about the same and can walk away with much higher grade machines still in excellent functioning condition, just grimy and dirty. You'll save in the long run. Expect a quality machine to require 3 Phase power. Which some VFDs can produce for you as they can also be had with inverters onboard.
Grizzly has some nice machinery and may be worth a look. I have their 12x36" lathe and one of their bandsaws. Haven't had any issues at all with them. They're imports, but have been a great value for me.
https://www.grizzly.com/milling-machines
https://www.grizzly.com/milling-machines
Any of the dedicated mills would be an upgrade but the PM 835 would be a significant upgrade over what you have now. It would be the most rigid of the three you mention.
The big question is what kind of work do you expect to do?
The big question is what kind of work do you expect to do?
David
Millermatic 130
Primeweld 225
Millermatic 130
Primeweld 225
TraditionalToolworks
- TraditionalToolworks
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Short of buying a vintage machine, a knee mill would be the best choice, and a Precision Matthews knee mill would be the choice if you can afford it.
I don't like Grizzly, yet another buy the cheapest product in China and resell it in America...and he truly exploited the South Bend name after purchasing it, IMO. They offer the most features at the cheapest prices, so if you believe that is possible you may have luck *IF*, and I emphasize *IF* you get a working machine after delivery. To their credit they normally take care of damaged machines, but I akin them similar to Everlast. Caveat Emptor.
Most mills take up quite a good amount of space, but that's just how it is. I won't go into a lot of details on this as some are smaller than others, some are more rigid, it's a topic that has forums dedicated to.
I don't like Grizzly, yet another buy the cheapest product in China and resell it in America...and he truly exploited the South Bend name after purchasing it, IMO. They offer the most features at the cheapest prices, so if you believe that is possible you may have luck *IF*, and I emphasize *IF* you get a working machine after delivery. To their credit they normally take care of damaged machines, but I akin them similar to Everlast. Caveat Emptor.
Most mills take up quite a good amount of space, but that's just how it is. I won't go into a lot of details on this as some are smaller than others, some are more rigid, it's a topic that has forums dedicated to.
Collector of old Iron!
Alan
Alan
cj737,
With regards to the concrete epoxy, are you talking about filling in voids/cavities within the castings?
As far as looking for used machines and adapting/fixing them, not interested in that. I'm looking for a plug-n-play that will work on 240V 1-Φ power. I might get a phase converter later, but that is not set in stone.
Spartan,
I'm not too convinced on the Grizzlies. Something in the range of a 9x40 is already $5,500. Don't want to spend that much. But thank you for the input, I do appreciate it.
DavidR8,
General Zod doesn't need work to buy machines. He does what he wants when he wants!
Basically having work has never been a necessary criteria. I know they are used for work, for those that make some kind of living off them, but for me I see them as an item for casual enjoyment, so I can "play" machinist in my garage. Same goes with my welders. I not one, I just play one on TV. 
Traditional Toolworks,
I agree the PM-835S is the "best" of the 3 as an introductory knee-mill. I want it, but I also need to buy this $1,800 guitar and two Marshall full-stacks! And I can't buy everything! HobbyMachinist forum is still down right now, hence this thread here.
With regards to the concrete epoxy, are you talking about filling in voids/cavities within the castings?
As far as looking for used machines and adapting/fixing them, not interested in that. I'm looking for a plug-n-play that will work on 240V 1-Φ power. I might get a phase converter later, but that is not set in stone.
Spartan,
I'm not too convinced on the Grizzlies. Something in the range of a 9x40 is already $5,500. Don't want to spend that much. But thank you for the input, I do appreciate it.
DavidR8,
General Zod doesn't need work to buy machines. He does what he wants when he wants!
Basically having work has never been a necessary criteria. I know they are used for work, for those that make some kind of living off them, but for me I see them as an item for casual enjoyment, so I can "play" machinist in my garage. Same goes with my welders. I not one, I just play one on TV. Traditional Toolworks,
I agree the PM-835S is the "best" of the 3 as an introductory knee-mill. I want it, but I also need to buy this $1,800 guitar and two Marshall full-stacks! And I can't buy everything!
HobbyMachinist forum is still down right now, hence this thread here.
Last edited by Oscar on Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sorry maybe I wasn't entirely clear in my question.Oscar wrote: DavidR8,
General Zod doesn't need work to buy machines. He does what he wants when he wants!
By work I mean are you looking to do work in non-ferrous metals and plastics or steel?
Making small parts in non-ferrous or plastic makes much smaller demands on a mill than if you need to make large parts from steel.
David
Millermatic 130
Primeweld 225
Millermatic 130
Primeweld 225
Oh ok, got it. I like to work on materials for all three of those categories.DavidR8 wrote:Sorry maybe I wasn't entirely clear in my question.Oscar wrote: DavidR8,
General Zod doesn't need work to buy machines. He does what he wants when he wants!
By work I mean are you looking to do work in non-ferrous metals and plastics or steel?
Making small parts in non-ferrous or plastic makes much smaller demands on a mill than if you need to make large parts from steel.
TraditionalToolworks
- TraditionalToolworks
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I will just add that having 3 phase power is a huge benefit if you plan to buy industrial machines, since you can often buy them for pennies on the dollar. For me, that's my interest, and almost all of my machines are 3 phase (although not all).
The problem with buying any used machine is that it's really hard to checkout in all cases, it's just hard to try every feature and often you can't even get power to them as the seller has them in storage or doesn't have 3 phase to run them. It's pretty rare for 3 phase motors to go bad, even when being run to death 24x7, but it does happen occasionally. There are a lot of things that can break on metalworking machines, like lathes and mills. When they crash things can break in many cases. Caveat Emptor.
Most metalworking machines with 3HP-5HP+ motors will tend to be 3 phase though. For any 1HP-3HP you can run them off a VFD which is not a bad option, but plan for $200-$300 for one of those. Rotary Phase Converters are not perfect either, but more versatile as you can run more than one off them, but they need to run a motor in order to operate so you hear the motor humming in the background.
Digital Phase Converters like the Phase Perfect, are the most ideal for a home shop without 3 phase running to it, but they are not very cheap either. I picked up a 20HP unit for $2500 which is about half the list and will put that in my new shop. It requires 100 amps of single phase to provide 55 amps of continuous 3 phase.
I would caution you against any of the Smithy machines, they just are not built very well. But for light use they may be ok, I just wouldn't want one in my shop. Precision Matthews is probably one of the better affordable options for new lathes and mills. My $0.02
Metalworking is a long slippery slope, just like welding in a way...and metalworking machines are much more dangerous than welders. Be careful whatever you do buy.
The problem with buying any used machine is that it's really hard to checkout in all cases, it's just hard to try every feature and often you can't even get power to them as the seller has them in storage or doesn't have 3 phase to run them. It's pretty rare for 3 phase motors to go bad, even when being run to death 24x7, but it does happen occasionally. There are a lot of things that can break on metalworking machines, like lathes and mills. When they crash things can break in many cases. Caveat Emptor.
Most metalworking machines with 3HP-5HP+ motors will tend to be 3 phase though. For any 1HP-3HP you can run them off a VFD which is not a bad option, but plan for $200-$300 for one of those. Rotary Phase Converters are not perfect either, but more versatile as you can run more than one off them, but they need to run a motor in order to operate so you hear the motor humming in the background.
Digital Phase Converters like the Phase Perfect, are the most ideal for a home shop without 3 phase running to it, but they are not very cheap either. I picked up a 20HP unit for $2500 which is about half the list and will put that in my new shop. It requires 100 amps of single phase to provide 55 amps of continuous 3 phase.
I would caution you against any of the Smithy machines, they just are not built very well. But for light use they may be ok, I just wouldn't want one in my shop. Precision Matthews is probably one of the better affordable options for new lathes and mills. My $0.02
Metalworking is a long slippery slope, just like welding in a way...and metalworking machines are much more dangerous than welders. Be careful whatever you do buy.
Collector of old Iron!
Alan
Alan
I appreciate your input, and I agree on all points. Your shop is a pro-shop though, mine isn't, lol. If the mill on my current Smithy 3-in-1 is currently enough for my needs, I'm sure any of the larger ones would be too though. I think you're picturing in your head constant machining day-in, day-out, and understandably so since it's part of what you do. My Smithy 1220LTD is lucky if it gets fired up once a month. Yes it does have it's set-backs, like having to constantly re-adjust the backlash and checking the gibs, and for the price I got it for I can't complain ($2,200 shipped). If one is picky enough, I'm sure the same could be said of any machine if the bar is set over the class of the machine. After having bought this 3-in-1, and observed it's draw-backs, and it has a few, I can be ready for the draw-backs of any other machine that would be a step-up, since I would expect for them to be minimized. I'm really liking that PM-940m though. But by the time I outfit it with power-down-feed, DRO's, hardened ways, motorized z-axis, it's already over $5,000, sheese, lol. Time-frame is Summer 2021, so I still have lots of time to look into options and what not.
Yes it does have it's set-backs, like having to constantly re-adjust the backlash and checking the gibs, and for the price I got it for I can't complain ($2,200 shipped). If one is picky enough, I'm sure the same could be said of any machine if the bar is set over the class of the machine. After having bought this 3-in-1, and observed it's draw-backs, and it has a few, I can be ready for the draw-backs of any other machine that would be a step-up, since I would expect for them to be minimized. I'm really liking that PM-940m though. But by the time I outfit it with power-down-feed, DRO's, hardened ways, motorized z-axis, it's already over $5,000, sheese, lol. Time-frame is Summer 2021, so I still have lots of time to look into options and what not.
TraditionalToolworks
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Oscar,
I don't want to mislead you, so will just state that I am not a pro, I'm a hobbyist and I just like to have a nice shop with good equipment. Really was the entire reason I would prefer to get an HTP or Miller Dynasty welder. (don't want any old transformer boxes the size of my machines)
I understand if you only do light work and did have a comment in my above comments that a Smithy might be ok for light use.
I have enough machine that I don't need to buy a Smithy, so it's pretty moot for me.
This also goes for Grizzly, they are perfectly acceptable for many people. I despise them more as a company than their machines, but they do have more features at cheaper prices and when has this worked out for all products from a single company?
To their credit, as with Smithy, many people have and use those machines to do fine work. For that matter, there are many people that use a mini-mill and a mini-lathe and are able to do fine work. I just take more pride in my work than to use one of those...(and a mini-mill was the first mill I bought).
I don't want to mislead you, so will just state that I am not a pro, I'm a hobbyist and I just like to have a nice shop with good equipment. Really was the entire reason I would prefer to get an HTP or Miller Dynasty welder. (don't want any old transformer boxes the size of my machines)
I understand if you only do light work and did have a comment in my above comments that a Smithy might be ok for light use.
I have enough machine that I don't need to buy a Smithy, so it's pretty moot for me.
This also goes for Grizzly, they are perfectly acceptable for many people. I despise them more as a company than their machines, but they do have more features at cheaper prices and when has this worked out for all products from a single company?
To their credit, as with Smithy, many people have and use those machines to do fine work. For that matter, there are many people that use a mini-mill and a mini-lathe and are able to do fine work. I just take more pride in my work than to use one of those...(and a mini-mill was the first mill I bought).
Collector of old Iron!
Alan
Alan
Oscar - yes, fill the casting voids with epoxy concrete, especially the base if its hollow.
Personally, having powered feed is a nice feature, but it is really low on my list. I prefer to have a larger motor, a more rigid spindle, and a full motion nod. Save your money on that aspect, because dividing heads, sine bars, angle plates, better micrometers and high quality mills will be expensive enough that saving the $1,000 will get spent rapidly enough. You also want a collimator to true the machine. And the best vise you can fit on your table.
I know a few blokes who have some Grizzly lathes. They are a really decent machine for their price. And the PM's too get decent reviews for home shops. I have a set of Clausings and a large Nardini to accompany my Bridgeport. Every machine I own I bought used. If you know what you're looking at, you can get great machines for far less money.
But I understand you want new, plug and go. Do consider it though. Given today's economic downturn, there will be heaps of machines on the market again before too long and you can save a LOT of money if only buying tooling.
Personally, having powered feed is a nice feature, but it is really low on my list. I prefer to have a larger motor, a more rigid spindle, and a full motion nod. Save your money on that aspect, because dividing heads, sine bars, angle plates, better micrometers and high quality mills will be expensive enough that saving the $1,000 will get spent rapidly enough. You also want a collimator to true the machine. And the best vise you can fit on your table.
I know a few blokes who have some Grizzly lathes. They are a really decent machine for their price. And the PM's too get decent reviews for home shops. I have a set of Clausings and a large Nardini to accompany my Bridgeport. Every machine I own I bought used. If you know what you're looking at, you can get great machines for far less money.
But I understand you want new, plug and go. Do consider it though. Given today's economic downturn, there will be heaps of machines on the market again before too long and you can save a LOT of money if only buying tooling.
That PM 835 looks nice. As for upgrades I would look at the DRO and power feed on the X. You could save a couple hundred buying these on eBay and fitting them yourself but I would just order it.
Avoid the bench top mill/drill machines. They are not any better than what you have.
Avoid the bench top mill/drill machines. They are not any better than what you have.
Sorry for the first short reply. Was on my tablet and when I went to my laptop to look something up I found that the last windows update had blue screened it.
My schooling is as a machinist. Working as more of a millwright.
The standard that is used to gauge from is the Bridgeport. There are many other Mills of the same type. Some are copies and some are uniquely there own. Have a bit of a soft spot for Ex-Cell-O myself. What's the old saying" Nobody ever got fired for buying ....."
So if your looking for a Mill for your shop the standard simple answer is to get a Bridgeport or one of the other Mills of the type.
However the not so simple answer is that many don't have the space or power for that. So the question then is how close can I get. There where a number of "baby" Bridgeport type Mills made back in the day. However there haven't been any real new options in years. The closest has been the machines like the Grizzly G0729 and G0731 However these do not have a ram like a true BP. The PM835 has a ram. This opens up the work you can do with it.
That is not to say that the G0729 is a bad machine. A version of it is what I have in my homeshop. The G0729 is $3700 with the X power feed. The PM835 is about $4700 after you add the X power feed. If there is a $1000 in worth there for you that would depend. Another option depending on what you are going to do with it or your thoughts on diy is Harbour Fright sells a cheap no frills version #40939 for$1900. Depending on what you are going to do it might be fine as is or many times these cheap Chinese machines can be kind of a preassembled kit. Obviously that is not a good option if it is the only machine you have access to.
As for the benchtop mill/drills. Some are ok. The first thing is just like a welder. The first project that comes up after deciding that this machine will be fine will be to big for the machine. Next many suffer from major rigidity issues. Anything but light cuts in soft material and you can use it to mix paint. Many have a MT2 or MT3 spindle. Not a big thing but not going to find the eBay/flea market tools looks you will with R8. They are using R8 in some but didn't make any changes.
My schooling is as a machinist. Working as more of a millwright.
The standard that is used to gauge from is the Bridgeport. There are many other Mills of the same type. Some are copies and some are uniquely there own. Have a bit of a soft spot for Ex-Cell-O myself. What's the old saying" Nobody ever got fired for buying ....."
So if your looking for a Mill for your shop the standard simple answer is to get a Bridgeport or one of the other Mills of the type.
However the not so simple answer is that many don't have the space or power for that. So the question then is how close can I get. There where a number of "baby" Bridgeport type Mills made back in the day. However there haven't been any real new options in years. The closest has been the machines like the Grizzly G0729 and G0731 However these do not have a ram like a true BP. The PM835 has a ram. This opens up the work you can do with it.
That is not to say that the G0729 is a bad machine. A version of it is what I have in my homeshop. The G0729 is $3700 with the X power feed. The PM835 is about $4700 after you add the X power feed. If there is a $1000 in worth there for you that would depend. Another option depending on what you are going to do with it or your thoughts on diy is Harbour Fright sells a cheap no frills version #40939 for$1900. Depending on what you are going to do it might be fine as is or many times these cheap Chinese machines can be kind of a preassembled kit. Obviously that is not a good option if it is the only machine you have access to.
As for the benchtop mill/drills. Some are ok. The first thing is just like a welder. The first project that comes up after deciding that this machine will be fine will be to big for the machine. Next many suffer from major rigidity issues. Anything but light cuts in soft material and you can use it to mix paint. Many have a MT2 or MT3 spindle. Not a big thing but not going to find the eBay/flea market tools looks you will with R8. They are using R8 in some but didn't make any changes.
Thanks JohnMc for the input. Keep in mind, I'm strictly a hobbyist. I don't have a shop. I don't make any of my living welding nor machining. It's basically all for fun and toying around.JohnMc wrote:Sorry for the first short reply. Was on my tablet and when I went to my laptop to look something up I found that the last windows update had blue screened it.
My schooling is as a machinist. Working as more of a millwright.
The standard that is used to gauge from is the Bridgeport. There are many other Mills of the same type. Some are copies and some are uniquely there own. Have a bit of a soft spot for Ex-Cell-O myself. What's the old saying" Nobody ever got fired for buying ....."
So if your looking for a Mill for your shop the standard simple answer is to get a Bridgeport or one of the other Mills of the type.
However the not so simple answer is that many don't have the space or power for that. So the question then is how close can I get. There where a number of "baby" Bridgeport type Mills made back in the day. However there haven't been any real new options in years. The closest has been the machines like the Grizzly G0729 and G0731 However these do not have a ram like a true BP. The PM835 has a ram. This opens up the work you can do with it.
That is not to say that the G0729 is a bad machine. A version of it is what I have in my homeshop. The G0729 is $3700 with the X power feed. The PM835 is about $4700 after you add the X power feed. If there is a $1000 in worth there for you that would depend. Another option depending on what you are going to do with it or your thoughts on diy is Harbour Fright sells a cheap no frills version #40939 for$1900. Depending on what you are going to do it might be fine as is or many times these cheap Chinese machines can be kind of a preassembled kit. Obviously that is not a good option if it is the only machine you have access to.
As for the benchtop mill/drills. Some are ok. The first thing is just like a welder. The first project that comes up after deciding that this machine will be fine will be to big for the machine. Next many suffer from major rigidity issues. Anything but light cuts in soft material and you can use it to mix paint. Many have a MT2 or MT3 spindle. Not a big thing but not going to find the eBay/flea market tools looks you will with R8. They are using R8 in some but didn't make any changes.
Oh I get that. But I think you would find that getting anything smaller than the Grizzly G0729 would not really be much of a upgrade form what you have. It would be a 140 Mig in welder terms. The Grizzly G0729 would be more Lincoln MP210 or Millermatic 215 The Precision Matthews PM835 would be one of the multiprocess machines with AC/DC
Oh I agree definitely. I wasn't looking at anything smaller than 8 x 35 for the table. That's why those 9x40 benchtop mills caught my eye. I need to free up some space in my garage, that's for sure. It's a premium as it is. I'm actually cleaning up right now because I ordered some extra shelves, 'cause I got way too much crap everywhere on the floor, lol.
TraditionalToolworks
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FWIW, it's not the table size, IMO. You're splitting hairs over a few inches...Oscar wrote:Oh I agree definitely. I wasn't looking at anything smaller than 8 x 35 for the table. That's why those 9x40 benchtop mills caught my eye. I need to free up some space in my garage, that's for sure. It's a premium as it is. I'm actually cleaning up right now because I ordered some extra shelves, 'cause I got way too much crap everywhere on the floor, lol.
It's all about the design and quality of the machine, that's the bottom line.
Collector of old Iron!
Alan
Alan
A man after my own heart right there! ^^^DavidR8 wrote:To me it’s about machine rigidity and Z height.
You can also upsize your table later to a point. If that becomes of interest, definitely check out auctions because a table can be very good even if a machine is wrecked. And table can be resurfaced, ground, rebuilt.
Yes that too. I didn't mean that table size was the only criteria. I realize it all plays a part. That's why the heavier of the benchtop mills caught my eye. It's still a long ways off. But I just recently got a hold of a 30HP RPC, so when the time comes around to decide on a mill, I'll have 3-Φ 240V power at my disposal!DavidR8 wrote:To me it’s about machine rigidity and Z height.
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