Welding Tips and Tricks

Hey everyone,

I think like a heap of other people I've used COVID-19 as the push I needed to get out and try welding. It's something I've always wanted to do so a few weeks ago I went a bought myself a stick welding setup. I've been playing around with some scrap steel and some different electrodes with varying degrees of success. My first project will be to weld up some frames to make pump houses for my pool pump and grey water pump. Hopefully will go get the steel and start welding it all together next week.

So far I have had some great success with 6013 rods and welding some steel which I think is about 2.5-3.0mm thick.

I've tried to weld some really thin square tube (maybe about 1.5mm thick) and really struggle with blowing through it.

Also tried some 6011 rods but really struggled. I have a lot of trouble starting the arc and then keeping it when I do get it going. Turns out my welding machine doesn't have high enough open circut voltage.

Cheers!

Sergio wrote:Hey everyone,

I think like a heap of other people I've used COVID-19 as the push I needed to get out and try welding. It's something I've always wanted to do so a few weeks ago I went a bought myself a stick welding setup. I've been playing around with some scrap steel and some different electrodes with varying degrees of success. My first project will be to weld up some frames to make pump houses for my pool pump and grey water pump. Hopefully will go get the steel and start welding it all together next week.

So far I have had some great success with 6013 rods and welding some steel which I think is about 2.5-3.0mm thick.

I've tried to weld some really thin square tube (maybe about 1.5mm thick) and really struggle with blowing through it.

Also tried some 6011 rods but really struggled. I have a lot of trouble starting the arc and then keeping it when I do get it going. Turns out my welding machine doesn't have high enough open circut voltage.

Cheers!

Welcome to the Forum. A lot of great, very smart people here that can help you along the way.

Welcome Sergio. With regards to what you mentioned about 1.5mm sq tube, use 1.6mm or 2.0mm E6013s and ZERO gap, and you will be able to do it. E6011 does run on a lot of lower voltage DC stick welders, but I have heard of some people having issues. Post up more info/pictures in a thread in the SMAW forum, and I bet we can get to the bottom of it

Sergio wrote:Also tried some 6011 rods but really struggled. I have a lot of trouble starting the arc and then keeping it when I do get it going. Turns out my welding machine doesn't have high enough open circut voltage.

Sergio,

One thing about 6010/6011 is that it often needs what is referred to as "arc force" or "dig" as Miller refers to it.

Do you have an "Arc Force" setting on your machine? Depending on the machine this may or may not be important. Of the 2 machines I have, only one has an Arc Force setting (Everlast), it does run 6011 fine, but is not supported for running 6010 on it. My Primeweld will run 6010 but doesn't have an Arc Force setting, although I haven't run it, others have. It will also run 6011 and 7018.

The other setting which will effect starting the arc is what is known as "Hot Start", but neither of my machines have that.

I'm not sure what advice to offer as you didn't include what your machine is, how many amps you're using, or too many other details. I was recently criticized for suggesting someone offer this information, so I won't suggest you do, just state that I can't help you with anything you don't put in you post. The more information you provide on the machine, the settings, and the specific electrodes you're using could be helpful to others offering advice.

Welcome to the forum.

Oscar wrote:Welcome Sergio. With regards to what you mentioned about 1.5mm sq tube, use 1.6mm or 2.0mm E6013s and ZERO gap, and you will be able to do it. E6011 does run on a lot of lower voltage DC stick welders, but I have heard of some people having issues. Post up more info/pictures in a thread in the SMAW forum, and I bet we can get to the bottom of it

Thanks Oscar. I picked up a small packet of 1.6mm 6013's to try so I'll see how I go.

I'll do a bit more playing around with the 6011's and will post how I go in the SMAW forum.

One thing about 6010/6011 is that it often needs what is referred to as "arc force" or "dig" as Miller refers to it.

Do you have an "Arc Force" setting on your machine? Depending on the machine this may or may not be important. Of the 2 machines I have, only one has an Arc Force setting (Everlast), it does run 6011 fine, but is not supported for running 6010 on it. My Primeweld will run 6010 but doesn't have an Arc Force setting, although I haven't run it, others have. It will also run 6011 and 7018.

The other setting which will effect starting the arc is what is known as "Hot Start", but neither of my machines have that.

I'm not sure what advice to offer as you didn't include what your machine is, how many amps you're using, or too many other details. I was recently criticized for suggesting someone offer this information, so I won't suggest you do, just state that I can't help you with anything you don't put in you post. The more information you provide on the machine, the settings, and the specific electrodes you're using could be helpful to others offering advice.

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for that. I have one of these welders https://www.weldclass.com.au/product-gr ... -stick-tig

It has adjustable hot start and arc force. I tried around 60amps with hot start and arc force set to 5 (out of 10). The electrodes are 6011 3/32". I'll do some more playing and post into the SMAW forum...

Sergio wrote:Thanks for that. I have one of these welders https://www.weldclass.com.au/product-gr ... -stick-tig

It has adjustable hot start and arc force. I tried around 60amps with hot start and arc force set to 5 (out of 10). The electrodes are 6011 3/32". I'll do some more playing and post into the SMAW forum...

Great looking little welder, capable of 1/8" electrodes, 140 amps is plenty for that.

Good solid looking stinger and ground clamp.

I would bump that Hot Start up to 8 and see how that goes, and keep going to 10 if you need to. If you have a hard time keeping the arc lit, then bump up the Arc Force to about 7 or 8, in fact it wouldn't hurt to just try that also.

I would also use 6010 electrodes since you can! 6011 should work fine also.

Nice looking little welder.

Sergio wrote:Hey everyone,


So far I have had some great success with 6013 rods and welding some steel which I think is about 2.5-3.0mm thick.

I've tried to weld some really thin square tube (maybe about 1.5mm thick) and really struggle with blowing through it.

Also tried some 6011 rods but really struggled. I have a lot of trouble starting the arc and then keeping it when I do get it going. Turns out my welding machine doesn't have high enough open circut voltage.

Cheers!

odds are it simply does not have the run voltage for 6011. no arc force adjustment will fix that.
quite common to find inverters that will not run cellulose rods, usually 6010 but also 6011.
you will see them advertised for rutile and basic rods (not cellulose).
i have a couple of them that are like that.

with thin material, 6013 electrode negative is very handy for that.
however make sure you have suitable rods, there is a huge range of 6013's available some are not very suitable for thin stuff. usually the description on the packet gives it away.

tweake wrote:odds are it simply does not have the run voltage for 6011. no arc force adjustment will fix that.
quite common to find inverters that will not run cellulose rods, usually 6010 but also 6011.
you will see them advertised for rutile and basic rods (not cellulose).
i have a couple of them that are like that.

I agree, as arc force is a current compensation feature to prevent an already running arc from snuffing out right before one sticks the electrode. For cellulose difficulties, the one and only fix is voltage. I saw this when trying to run E6010 on one of my machines with my water-cooled stinger. Sure the conductor can carry heaps of current (250A) because it is water-cooled, the sheer small size of it and the length (50ft/16m) caused enough voltage drop that E6010's would snuff out.

That being said, the only thing that might just have a slim chance, is beefed up cable leads, much thicker than one would ever need for a given machine. Even though normal 4 gauge stinger/"ground" leads can carry plenty of current for all practical purposes on small inverter stick welders, they will still exhibit voltage drop, as will the work clamp and cable. Over-size those three (by about 2x) in the name of saving every tenth of a volt, and it might just have a chance. But then there is the extra heft of the cabling to deal with.

cables might help.
but most of those machine usually have short cables to start with and the run voltage is really low on purpose. they can get better machine performance by keeping voltage low, and not many people use cellulose rods, especially Europe (i suspect its euro design machine) and of course downunder.
two main rods used here is 6013 and 7016.

Well, I don't know what his amperage is on his circuit, that's another thing he didn't mention.

But for 3/32" electrodes he shouldn't need more than 85-90 amps and that's got to be doable on a home 120v circuit. He did state his 6011 electrodes were 3/32".

I wouldn't discount him on power just yet. He hasn't even said what he has it plugged into or how much power is going into the machine.

You guys are really some Debbie Downers...I thought this was a forum to get help.

For someone that claims to tweak until it breaks, you sure don't tweak very long...just saying...

TraditionalToolworks wrote:Well, I don't know what his amperage is on his circuit, that's another thing he didn't mention.

But for 3/32" electrodes he shouldn't need more than 85-90 amps and that's got to be doable on a home 120v circuit. He did state his 6011 electrodes were 3/32".

I wouldn't discount him on power just yet. He hasn't even said what he has it plugged into or how much power is going into the machine.

You guys are really some Debbie Downers...I thought this was a forum to get help.

For someone that claims to tweak until it breaks, you sure don't tweak very long...just saying...

hes aussie, so its 240v and its a 10a outlet machine which is standard household plug.
plus a lot of these machines are fairly good a dealing with a wider range of incoming voltage.
however a standard extension lead can cause problems.

however the manual states its for rutile and basic electrodes, which means cellulose won't work. you have to read between the lines a bit as they never advertise what their machine cannot do.

as for tweaking, i have not done any real mods to the welders yet. but its early days.
i actually have toyed with the idea of working out the different voltage circuit they use for the tig setting and see if i can increase the voltage instead of lower it. turn the tig setting into a 6010 setting.
thats pretty typical especially with the lower end machines.

Oh come on tweake, where's your sense of tweakness?

You need to think outside the box a bit more.

Seriously, my welder only says it will run 6013, it doesn't have any hot start or arc force settings, but it will run 6010. It will also run 6011 and 7018. I don't think we can believe everything in a manual.

In the manual they state 6013 and 7016 and mention cellulose rod, but say they're not going to cover it.

To be clear, this is what it says on page 27. (I did correct the improper spelling of specialised to specialized )

"Arc Welding electrodes are classified into a number of groups depending on their applications. There are a great number of electrodes used for specialized industrial purposes which are not of particular interest for everyday general work. These include some low hydrogen types for high tensile steel, cellulose types for welding large diameter pipes, etc. The range of electrodes dealt with in this publication will cover the vast majority of applications likely to be encountered; are all easy to use."

That doesn't mean whatsoever that the machine won't run 6010, 6011 or 7018.

As I said, I think that looks like a great little stick welder, and I wouldn't be adverse to trying any rod on it. I even feel jealous that it has a hot start and arc force setting, something I was hoping would be on the Primeweld. But I'm not unhappy in any way about the Primeweld. No complaints for the cost.

TraditionalToolworks wrote:
As I said, I think that looks like a great little stick welder, and I wouldn't be adverse to trying any rod on it. I even feel jealous that it has a hot start and arc force setting, something I was hoping would be on the Primeweld. But I'm not unhappy in any way about the Primeweld. No complaints for the cost.

its a good little welder. very hard to find them with hot start and arc force.
the few that do usually have "automatic hot start/arc force" aka fixed settings.

but when they are advertised as "use rutile and basic rods", generally means cellulose won't run. 6011 sometimes will.
when they say it "runs cellulose rods" it means 6011. 6010 welders are really rare and usually very expensive.

out of my 4 welders only two run 6011 well, one just barely and the other not at all, and none runs 6010.

tweake wrote:
but when they are advertised as "use rutile and basic rods", generally means cellulose won't run. 6011 sometimes will.
when they say it "runs cellulose rods" it means 6011. 6010 welders are really rare and usually very expensive.

I got in contact with the manufacturer and they came back saying that cellulose rods aren't recommended for this welder. They also said it should run 6013 and 7018 rods really well though. I have a heap of 6013s here so that's fine. The 6011's I do have I can use if I feel bored and looking for a challenge.

Sergio wrote:I got in contact with the manufacturer and they came back saying that cellulose rods aren't recommended for this welder. They also said it should run 6013 and 7018 rods really well though. I have a heap of 6013s here so that's fine. The 6011's I do have I can use if I feel bored and looking for a challenge.

If it was me I would sure be curious if they would run. I'm going to try some 6010 and 6011 on my Primeweld even though they're not supported, for that matter 7018 is not supported either.

You should definitely put 7018 on your try it list, I would say it's my favorite rod, although it is slightly tricky to learn to start, slag tends to form over the end of the rod when you stop, but it produces really nice looking beads when done correctly.

I do have 6013 and do like it, but it's not one of the preferred rods in America, it's much more popular in Europe and Down Under. It's pretty easy to find in 1/16" size though, which is handy and good to keep on hand for thin work.

Good luck with your new machine Sergio! Was only trying to encourage you to try all rods that you can, no matter what the manual says.

I would say this is a useful and interesting little power source. Open circuit voltage is 55V, not really up there but more than many. Probably not enough OCV for 6010 but I reckon 6011 is worth a go to see what happens, you just might get lucky. Not often the home gamer needs cellulosic rods unless you're doing strong farm fencing with rusty steel.

Our American brothers are in love with 7018, we have it here too like Cigweld Ferrocraft 61 (common). We here mostly use 7016 which is similar to 7018 but without the added iron powder which is great for thicker steels and welds but not necessary for thinner day to day stuff. My suggestion is to get to know this rod, don't worry about hot ovens etc just use it off the shelf (unless you are doing code work) which makes it the same quality weld as say 7014. 7016 has a thinner flux coating so you don't get the same "worm holing" problem like you do with 6013 and you get more penetration and better stronger welds. E7016 is known as E4816 down under by the way, 70 stands for 70,000psi and 48 stands for 48MPa. Available in many brands.

6013 is junk, some will argue this point but the facts are clear. Retailers like to sell it because there are no storage issues, it's cheap, and the uneducated don't know any better. Industry doesn't use it much, we used to use it to cap pipe welds back in the old times and I think the poms still use it for this purpose but you have to be a well trained welder to get consistently good welds and most codes won't allow it anyway these days.

This power source will do Lift Tig as well but you're limited to 1/16" 1.6mm electrodes and therefore thinner steels like sheet metal.

keep in mind OCV is more about transformer machine than inverters.
OCV is simply an easy thing to measure that gives you an idea of run voltage. works fine with transformer but the electronics with inverters can change things a fair bit.

i'll argue 6013 is not junk.
after all what is a lot of the flux cored wire made out of, rutile aka 6013.
however its seldom used in industry as most industries use low hydrogen rods or mig.
a lot of the stuff that was done with 6013 is now done with hardwire mig.

but a lot of manufactures still make a huge range of 6013, there still must be some use for it out there.
its still perfectly fine for a lot of non-critical stuff.
in euro they use it for coded pipe welding.
so don't right it off as junk just because you don't use it.

Coldman wrote:6013 is junk, some will argue this point but the facts are clear.

tweake wrote:i'll argue 6013 is not junk.

I saw that one comming Coldman!

I don't mind it, but it's certainly not on my favorite rod list, and wouldn't be my first choice.

OCV is more about having enough volts available to light up a 6010 rod, you don't need fancy electronics for this. Closed circuit voltage is about keeping a 6010 rod lit which is where fancy electronics in inverter machines comes in to play.
Every power source I've seen that claims to run 6010 rods has a comparatively high OCV whether tranny or inverter, typically 75V-100V. Have a read of this for more info: https://www.esabna.com/us/en/news/newsl ... trodes.cfm.

TraditionalToolworks wrote: I don't mind it, but it's certainly not on my favorite rod list, and wouldn't be my first choice.

for me its about what fits the situation. usually i stick weld small stuff i can't be bothered getting the mig out for.
its rarely structural. 6013 makes a nice looking bead which helps.
however i do more repairs than anything and 6011 comes in real handy for dealing with contaminated crap.
tho i have 7016 here as well, i really need to get some practise on that.

"in euro they use it for coded pipe welding"

Which code are you referring to?

tweake wrote:for me its about what fits the situation.

I completely agree, and for me it's pretty runny when doing any type of vertical up/down with it.

I don't mind it, like I said, and I would use some of the 1/16" on sheet metal if needed, but I wouldn't use it on heavier steel.

tweake wrote:its rarely structural. 6013 makes a nice looking bead which helps.

I agree, it can actually look similar to 7018 when done nicely.

tweake wrote:however i do more repairs than anything and 6011 comes in real handy for dealing with contaminated crap.

That kind of surprises me, I didn't think 6010/6011 was popular at all Down Under.

I was actually pretty surprised to see Coldman's comments, most folks Down Under seem to like 6013, could be your most popular rod of all down there from what I have been able to tell.

In America it seems 7018 is the rod of choice. Not exactly sure why, it can be a bit tricky to start, but mainly I guess it's because it's used on structural welding most often. I don't see too many people using 7016, although some of us use 7014 or 7024. What a difference a locale makes, heh?

Coldman wrote:"in euro they use it for coded pipe welding"

Which code are you referring to?

no frigen idea whatsoever.
but theres a few euro guys on IG and welding web that do some pretty decent size pipe (ie no hobby sized stuff) and its all 6013. i did even come across a 6013 pipe welding rod.

frankly i would have thought hydrogen levels would rule it out of use.

TraditionalToolworks wrote: That kind of surprises me, I didn't think 6010/6011 was popular at all Down Under.

I was actually pretty surprised to see Coldman's comments, most folks Down Under seem to like 6013, could be your most popular rod of all down there from what I have been able to tell.

In America it seems 7018 is the rod of choice. Not exactly sure why, it can be a bit tricky to start, but mainly I guess it's because it's used on structural welding most often. I don't see too many people using 7016, although some of us use 7014 or 7024. What a difference a locale makes, heh?

Alot of home gamers and and mechanical repair shops around that will take on weld repair. All use 6013 or mig and unqualified or maybe 2nd class welders. Farmers mostly use 6013 unless they are skooled. Big box stores and hardware stores selling cheap welders all stock 6013 because that's what the uneducated/unqualified ask for - they don't know any better. LSW's all stock 6013 so they supply the above. Qualifed welders/shops won't buy it, they'll go for 7016, 7018, 7024, hard facing etc.

I only keep stick rods for the occasional repair that comes into the shop like a truck with a broken repair weld (usually 6013 or mig done by a home gamer). All my pipework is done with tig. I know Poland308 stick welds alot and we are in the same industry. I don't mind cause while he's out there stick welding, he's not wearing out my TA power source.