Welding Tips and Tricks

Hi, I am new here but need some advice.

I just bought my first TIG machine 10 days ago, a Lincon Squarewave 200. We used it intermittently for a couple of days welding 1/8" stainless steel at 100 amps DC, until it went pop, LOUD (made me jump from 30 feet away). It tripped a 50 amp breaker and the machine showed no signs of life. So back to the dealer where I bought the machine, and got the standard line " machine's toast, out of the box defect, never heard of that before, your the only one that ever had this problem". But they happily refunded my money and sold me the Squarewave 200 out of their demo lab, for a bit of a discount, since I really needed a machine and that was the only one they had in the store. Got back to the shop, welded for a bit on the same above mentioned stainless steel project, and POP there went the second machine. Now we are like to stumped.

Things we have considered,
-Checked and double checked the set up of the machine, everything was done right according to the owners manual.
-Checked voltages at the wall, all OK. I have been running Millermatic 252 machines on this receptical for 2 years. This is the only receptical on the circuit.
-No evidence of a power surge since there were no other symptoms anywhere else on the property. All other equipment, computers, lights are fine. There was other stuff running at the time both machines went out .
-Called the electrician that wired the building 2 years ago and exhausted his ideas. I don't remember what all they were but he ended the call as puzzled as everyone else. He didn't actually do an in person visit.

So I am thinking maybe a defective run of machines is just hitting the market maybe? I did find an Amazon review from a dissatisfied customer that is having exactly the same distress on a machine purchased about 3 weeks ago, but have not found any other reviews or forum posts with a problem like this. Maybe I should keep my allegiance to the Blue......I have no doubt Lincoln is a great company but sometimes even great companies have problems.

Or do I need to dig into my power supply here at the shop looking for problems? I can't believe it's a wiring problem since it is isolated to one machine on one circuit......

Any ideas?

How large a fuse is on that circuit? You should never run anything higher than the machine requires (like a 50 amp when your machine calls for a 30)

cj737 wrote:How large a fuse is on that circuit? You should never run anything higher than the machine requires (like a 50 amp when your machine calls for a 30)

I've often wondered why people recommend this for welders. Almost every tool in a shop is plugged in to a circuit larger than it needs. Same for almost everything in a house.

Electricians have told me that breakers are sized to protect the wiring, not equipment.
I'm not an electrician - and specifically, no offense is intended as I don't know the answer one way or the other.

For the OP, I'd sure have electrician and power company out to check what's going on. The circuit has been fine for a long time but this might be a new problem.

Make sure to duplicate conditions, like having the other equipment turn on and off while that circuit is under load.

MinnesotaDave wrote:
Electricians have told me that breakers are sized to protect the wiring, not equipment.

correct. simply to stop the wire from melting and setting the place on fire.

tweake wrote:

MinnesotaDave wrote:
Electricians have told me that breakers are sized to protect the wiring, not equipment.

correct. simply to stop the wire from melting and setting the place on fire.

The Master Electrician who wired my shop, has told me specifically the opposite. The breaker stops current to your device should it decide to go haywire and draw more amps than its rated for (up to 200 depending upon your service). True, the breaker also limits the current seen by the wiring, but its the device that draws current, not the wiring.

Bring in the electrician that wired it. You have a serious problem. Better yet, bring in a different electrician.

Please keep us posted.

cj737 wrote:

tweake wrote:

MinnesotaDave wrote:
Electricians have told me that breakers are sized to protect the wiring, not equipment.

correct. simply to stop the wire from melting and setting the place on fire.

The Master Electrician who wired my shop, has told me specifically the opposite. The breaker stops current to your device should it decide to go haywire and draw more amps than its rated for (up to 200 depending upon your service). True, the breaker also limits the current seen by the wiring, but its the device that draws current, not the wiring.

most devices have their own built in fuse for over current should the unit fault.
generally devices do not rely on the circuit breaker for protection. a 5 amp device can sit there all day arcing away on a 50 amp circuit breaker, it will most likely catch on fire before it trips the 50 amp.

I believe I have a 2005 electrical code book. If I remember correctly it’s contents are controlled by an entity Called the NFPA. National Fire Protection Association. They like to keep your wire from catching fire in your walls by protecting it with a circuit breaker.

Thanks for the input! I am planning to get the electrician out here in person asap. He has been a licensed sparky doing primarily commercial work in this county for about 30 years and has a very good name, very easy to work with.

My Lincoln dealer is also communicating with Lincoln although he hasn't gotten much out of them....

I will let you know what we figure out.

Keep us posted. I hope it's a simple fix. My guess, an intermittent neutral.

cj737 wrote:How large a fuse is on that circuit? You should never run anything higher than the machine requires (like a 50 amp when your machine calls for a 30)

My understanding is that this is only true if you use 30 amp wire on a 50 amp circuit, that could be a problem.

If you have a machine that draws 30 amps, it's perfectly fine to use 50 amp wire to plug it into a 50 amp circuit. You must use wire for the circuit, not the machine, otherwise what you suggest could be a problem.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Alan

Ok, some of you said you wanted to be updated on the consensus of my little dilemma so here goes, events in the order they happened...

My electrician ruled out any problems with the wiring in the shop.

Did some more extensive looking for reviews and customer feedback concerning this type of problem. I discovered that Lincoln does not post customer reviews on their website, but Miller does on some of their products. Almost everything I found pointed toward the fact that low end inverter based TIG machines are notorious for "popping", regardless of make or model. If you want a machine that is more or less guaranteed to be reliable you need to shell out a bit more green.

Called my dealer back and touched base with him. He said that, almost verbatim quote "the Squarewave 200 is an economy model inverter based machine, and so it will be sensitive to any current fluctuations there may be, even if my other machines, drill presses, saws etc. showed no effect". Basically said, without saying it, that the inverter technology in the machine is flimsy and problem prone, which confirmed what I was suspecting.

Checked AGAIN and I could not create any fluctuations at all in current more than a volt or two anywhere in the shop no matter where I tested and what machines we turned on and off and operated. All the wires on the circuit were tight and no signs of arcing anywhere in the wiring. Which pointed me again to the quality of the welder.....

Called a different service center out of my area. When I called them I thought they were a dedicated welder repair shop but discovered after I was on the phone they were also a Lincoln dealer. He was a bit more forthright with me and said he has seen this problem before with the Squarewave 200, specifically with a batch of 25 machines sold to one customer and he replaced almost every one if them on warranty, and finally upgraded the customers machines to the Precision 225. They have had no trouble since. So I decided to follow his advice.

Ordered a Precision 225 yesterday. This is a transformer based machine with good reviews as near as I can find, and still reasonably priced for my budget. My salesman tried to talk me out of it and into a Miller Dynasty 210, at almost 3 times the cost of the Squarewave, based on the fact that , he said, the 225 doesn't have all the features an inverter machine will have. No pulse, no high frequency start. I pointed out to him that the catalogue lists both of those features......... Awkward pause, and he started writing up my order for a Precision 225.

The machine gets to me early next week so we will see how this turns out.

Things I learned-
-Never trust a salesman implicitly, unless he is far enough removed from you to not be hampered by expectations of commissions.
-Cheap welders are cheap for a reason. Not saying that there are not a lot of very satisfied Squarewave 200 users out there. Read the reviews and you will see there are. But cheap welders are problem prone and I happened to get 2 lemons in a row.

Thanks for the help and advice guys!

I'm sorry you're having problems, but I disagree strongly with the explanations about inverter-based machines being cheap, economy market products. There are thousands, if not 10s of thousands of inverter TIG boxes in use every day in the world. You simply got 2 lemons. There's not a thing wrong with a Lincoln, but I own Millers. And I own some cheap Miller Inverters and have NEVER seen of, or heard of the malarky the Welding Shop spewed to you.

And an modern inverter-based machine has so many benefits over a transformer, you're off your deck to go backwards. Buy a different brand box in your same budget. Or don't, and get the short straw again.

cj737 wrote:I'm sorry you're having problems, but I disagree strongly with the explanations about inverter-based machines being cheap, economy market products. There are thousands, if not 10s of thousands of inverter TIG boxes in use every day in the world. You simply got 2 lemons. There's not a thing wrong with a Lincoln, but I own Millers. And I own some cheap Miller Inverters and have NEVER seen of, or heard of the malarky the Welding Shop spewed to you.

And an modern inverter-based machine has so many benefits over a transformer, you're off your deck to go backwards. Buy a different brand box in your same budget. Or don't, and get the short straw again.

That was good. I liked that, put my mind at ease. Honest assessment.

To clarify I do not think it is a bad idea to buy a cheap welder but I do think cheap welders are cheap for a reason. The components are less reliable and lemons more common. I don't doubt inverter technology is a great thing and there are lots of very happy people using these machines. I guess " once bitten twice shy" applies to me. Twice bitten very very shy. Thanks!!!

wes gable wrote:To clarify I do not think it is a bad idea to buy a cheap welder but I do think cheap welders are cheap for a reason. The components are less reliable and lemons more common. I don't doubt inverter technology is a great thing and there are lots of very happy people using these machines. I guess " once bitten twice shy" applies to me. Twice bitten very very shy. Thanks!!!

I understand the "once bitten twice shy" syndrome, but have to wonder why there are so many inverters being used in aerospace? At least I have heard that is true for work that NASA does, but don't have direct experience.

Jody Collier pushes some of the inverters he uses to the limit and back, and many of them stand up just fine. This might be a good question for you to submit to him for his weekly video or pod cast.

Alan

I have several tig welders all but one are inverters. I am sold on on inverters. But.......having seen what you went through I don't blame you for going the transformer route. You need to satisfy yourself and no one else.

I read this thread 3 time till it hit me. You bought a Lincoln Squarewave 200 tig welder and after a few days of use it goes bad, ok it happens. You take it back and they sell you their demo unit and you take it back to the shop and hook it up to the same plug and blow it up.

That tells me you have something wrong in your shops electric system. If the demo was working fine at the dealers then it should work fine at your shop.

Transformer welders can take more electric fluctuation or spikes then inverter's can to a point.

The Lincoln Squarewave 200 is really not a CHEAP inverter welder. Lincoln made this welder to compete with all the Chinese units coming into the market.

mechanic416 wrote:I read this thread 3 time till it hit me. You bought a Lincoln Squarewave 200 tig welder and after a few days of use it goes bad, ok it happens. You take it back and they sell you their demo unit and you take it back to the shop and hook it up to the same plug and blow it up.

That tells me you have something wrong in your shops electric system. If the demo was working fine at the dealers then it should work fine at your shop.

Transformer welders can take more electric fluctuation or spikes then inverter's can to a point.

The Lincoln Squarewave 200 is really not a CHEAP inverter welder. Lincoln made this welder to compete with all the Chinese units coming into the market.

Good thought.

mechanic416 wrote:I read this thread 3 time till it hit me. You bought a Lincoln Squarewave 200 tig welder and after a few days of use it goes bad, ok it happens. You take it back and they sell you their demo unit and you take it back to the shop and hook it up to the same plug and blow it up.

That tells me you have something wrong in your shops electric system. If the demo was working fine at the dealers then it should work fine at your shop.

Transformer welders can take more electric fluctuation or spikes then inverter's can to a point.

My thoughts as well.

I've read through this thread a few times also and I've been wondering...

What if one of the hot legs was intermittent and the welder for some reason thought the voltage switched to 120v from 240v, and as it did that it got power back on the 2nd leg, I wonder if that would cause the unit to pop something inside the unit? It sounds like a capacitor is blowing...or other component.

I also agree it must be something in the building since the dealer was using the demo reliably at their location, but I don't think we know all the details either...there is some speculation in this thread...

Alan

Or if it’s fed off of a wild leg. He may only have single phase but I’ve seen this happen before. You can’t always detect that it’s a wild leg with a regular multimeter.

Poland308 wrote:Or if it’s fed off of a wild leg. He may only have single phase but I’ve seen this happen before. You can’t always detect that it’s a wild leg with a regular multimeter.

This doesn't sound like an easy problem to track down.

Well if he does have a wild leg then the transformer machine should be much more reliable.