[FST2011]

Hello everyone,

First want to say I'm complete novice but Im not all thumbs. I tried searching google for the info but nothing turned up. I also want to say this forum has allot of GREAT info and cant wait to start making some of my projects. Can someone please take the time and try to explain in simple terms. Some back story, cause after hopefully getting this figured out I will post new question about possible help in design of track system for my son. But thats down the road a bit.

My son has down syndrome and few years back hurt himself and now cant walk. We looked into getting a medical grade track system but costs $40k and it costs allot to get other things for around the house to make things easier for him. So I figured I would try and make some of the things that are not too dangerous if they fail...example if I weld a small ramp and it breaks its not going to harm him.

So I was given some shop tools for either cheap or free only problem is they run on 220. The garage only setup to run basic 110. I was going to run a line from basement to garage but noticed I had a 'sub-box' think its called that outside near garage. I'm hoping this might work cause it seems it would save me allot of money.

The sub-box was used few years ago for a hot tub. We dont have it anymore but box is still there. When in basement, it looks like it runs to main box.

My question, can I use this sub-box to power everything in garage that needs 220? Would I change everything in sub box or leave it alone? Would I need to change anything on the 'main box' in the basement? As for the sub-box, do I 'need' to run the wire from the sub box underground to garage or can I just pipe it and drill hole into garage?

As for how many things will need the 220...I have 60gal Compressor, everlast 210EXT welder, Lotos Plasma cutter and thats really it. its not a fab shop...only me doing the work so will not be using all machines running at same time. I can see myself going from one to another but never 2 at same time. Not sure if this info helps but trying to give as much info you might need to help.


Truly thanks for sharing your advice.

[Mike]

Welcome to the forum.
Did you call a local Elect company to look at it.

[cj737]

I'll give you some "basic" information, but you really need to have a Certified Electrician come out and counsel you. And probably do the work.

220v is available by running service from both sides of the service. If you look at an electric panel below the face shield, you will see 2 service lines running down. Your standard 120v service is run through a single "leg", and more often than not, you only use a single wide breaker (fuse). Look for instance at your Main service panel for the house. See the breaker for your stove/oven or Dryer? It uses a 2-wide breaker, and, it has service legs from both sides. Thats 240v/220v.

So your question about "will my sub panel" feed my garage is Yes, and No. Its not whether 220v is available, its whether there is sufficient available Amperage available. All the shop tools you described probably use 30-60 Amp breakers. If your sub panel is rated for 50-100 amps only, then legging to the garage will consume more amps than the sub panel and Main panel may have available. Make any sense?

Plus, to run power underground from panel-to-panel, you need either UL rated lines or conduit buried. Find a buddy who is a certified electrician to come help or do in trade so that you're COMPLETELY safe. Your boy needs his Dad more than you need a visit to the ER

[aland]

So your question about "will my sub panel" feed my garage is Yes, and No. Its not whether 220v is available, its whether there is sufficient available Amperage available. All the shop tools you described probably use 30-60 Amp breakers. If your sub panel is rated for 50-100 amps only, then legging to the garage will consume more amps than the sub panel and Main panel may have available. Make any sense?

Yes, makes sense to me. I wanted to add that most older homes, like mine, only have 125 amps total for the entire home. Short of running another line from the street, I need to limit myself to that.

This is important as most homes of this vintage also only have 20 amps circuits for most 110v circuits, and if you're lucky to have a dryer electrical circuit, you might get lucky with 30 amps of 220v. This is not to say you couldn't run a 50 amp circuit in your garage, but if you have a fair amount of use you will pop the breaker on the main line. You need two of the same amp 120v circuits to form a single 220v. So 2 x 30 amp circuits will provide power for a single 30 amp 220v circuit (2 hot legs).

I had one of said 30 amp dryer circuits, and it is what I run a 7.5HP Rotary Phase Converter on.

I was slightly limited on welders, and many need bigger circuits. The standard welding plug/circuit is 50 amps. You will almost never find a 50 amp welding plug in one of the older homes, but some people have done it. You will need 2 x 50 amp 110v circuits to form a single 50 amp 220v circuit. Can you see how this will be limited with a home that only has 125amps off the main?

Lastly, not to complicate things, but there are formulas for calculating how many amps are too much for a home circuit based on the main line amps. I don't know what they are and you would need to ask an electrician. I think it's something like 30% more than the main line, but don't quote me on that...it is arbitrary since you will most likely not use more amps but could always happen if you have the entire house lit up and powering electricity that exceeds the main line. Probably a rare occasion, but something to think about.

Oh, and welcome to the forum, thanks for not saying, "hey...NOOB here", I hate that. At least you call yourself a novice, not a NOOB... DISCLAIMER: I don't know too much about welding either, or electrical either. Do yourself a favor and do as cj suggested, get an electrician out to just give you an estimate on what needs to be done.

Alan

[cj737]

The standard welding plug/circuit is 50 amps.

That is not necessarily true. Many modern inverter based welding machines run off a 30 amp 240/220v circuit. I run my Dynasty TIG box all day amp for instance and have never popped a fuse. But most older transformer based welders do use much higher amperage, and some of the machines he listed in his post probably do as well.

When your electrician comes out, you might get him to plan the service needs accurately, then contact the Electric Co about running a whole new service to your home. I did this recently (new 200 amp to my shop at the house). I got a great tip from my Uncle who is a Master Electrician: the Power co sends a “survey/application” to you that you fill out with total useage, demand etc for the new service. If you list EVERY possible machine you’ll run, the load, they will do the calculation. Many times, they will offset the cost of the new service being buried, by their “expected revenue” from your shop. This worked in my case. I was staring at $4,400 for a new full service. My application showed that they would recover that within 2years. I pay on average $19/ month for my shop’s electricity Gotta love those inside tips!

[aland]

That is not necessarily true. Many modern inverter based welding machines run off a 30 amp 240/220v circuit

This is true, I am running my inverter off a 30 amp circuit, and a number of machine do run on 30 amps, some less, but 30 amps seems like the minimum for a 200 amp inverter.

The cable/plug are a standard 50 amp NEMA 6-50P.

This starts to get more complicated when you do this, because the way the machine is wired is for a 50 amp circuit. Even though it draws less, the wire/plug are 50 amp.

The only reason I mention this is that if you rewire the machine you need to make sure you wire it for the circuit, not the machine. Most inverters are designed to plug into a standard 50 amp welding circuit, and will use a pig tail for 110v these days. I made a pig tail to plug from the 50 amp to the 30 amp L6 which I use for my 220v line.

This all works fine, just be aware that you will have different amps for the circuits and welder and if you re-wire the welder cable itself, the manufacture might not like that...again you may want to consult an electrician on that as well.

The bottom line is that electricity can get complicated, main line amps, breakers, 110/220 circuits, plugs, machine wire/plug, etc...pretty easy to cause a problem if not careful. Since I am not an electrician I suggest you talk to one. You should have a fair idea on what to ask them about and/or have them look at your garage. Some may do it for free, or some may charge a service fee. It's worth paying a service fee to get a professional opinion, just be warned that not all electricians were created equal either...

Alan

[homeboy]

I have a 100A panel in the house with a 60A sub panel in the shop, house 40+ years and shop 30+years, fuses even, all installed by a certified electrician. They run everything without a glitch. Mind you we are energy conscious with T-8's, Led lighting and 6 kids long gone with the 1/2 hr showers etc. As a retired hobbyest all that would run at once is a 2hp compressor,lighting, a vent fan and the tool I'am using at the time. Lincoln 180 max 20A, 250 mig inverter max 24A which I'll never max out with .035 wire. They both have a 50A plug which I suspect is industry standard up to a certain size? How and what you are going to operate governs what your needs are. As others suggested a meeting with a certified electricion is a necessary first step.

[clavius]

It's a bit hard to say for sure from the photos, but if that third pic you posted is the sub-panel it looks like you have two 220V circuits and a single 120V circuit in there. The remarks in the other replies about having enough available current apply of course, and what you can run will depend on what your machines draw. If none of them are more than the maximum available and you only run one at a time, it still works fine. One place I worked had 3 welders on one 50A line. We never used more than one at a time, so no problem.

You really do need a local electrician to take a look. They can assess things and give you much better advice than we can from a distance. You don't say where you are located, but maybe there is a local forum member that would be willing to take a look and at least offer some advice. I've had guys on other forums do as much for me.

And good for you for using your time and shop skills to help out your son. He's a lucky kid, he has a real "capital D" Dad.

[aland]

The standard welding plug/circuit is 50 amps.

That is not necessarily true. Many modern inverter based welding machines run off a 30 amp 240/220v circuit. I run my Dynasty TIG box all day amp for instance and have never popped a fuse. But most older transformer based welders do use much higher amperage, and some of the machines he listed in his post probably do as well.

cj,

Which model Dynasty do you run off a 30 amp circuit? Must be a 200 or 210. I saw a Dynasty 280dx for sale locally and on the plate it said it needed close to 60 amps for max-inrush. I had thought you mentioned using a 280, so confused...

miller-dynasty-280dx-plate.jpg

Alan

[Arno]

In most cases inrush current is not an issue as it's high, but very short in duration.

Circuit breakers are normally sized on the sustained load capacity of the circuit (wiring size, lenght, etc.), but have a certain trigger time and speed when it comes to the actual current protection.

A circuit breaker normally has 2 parallel methods of current protection/limiting that are active:

- A thermal protection that's set at a little over the rated limit

This is the regular 'over current' protection and relies on the breaker warming up as more and more current flows through it. In a sustained over-current condition it will basically 'overheat' a trigger circuit and it will cut the power. (eg. you run too many devices on 1 circuit and after about 5 to 10 minutes the breaker 'pops')

- An electromagnetic protection for short-circuit/high current conditions

The current in the breaker also runs through a coil setup where it magnetises a metal slug. If the current peaks and exceeds a certain threshold then the magnetic force will be big enough for it to pull a trigger-pin back and the circuit breaker then cuts the circuit.

Internally a breaker also has some internal arc-break construction as the current flow will resist the break and bridge an air-gap with a welder-like arc. Usually inside the breaker there's a system where the arc is allowed to dissipate across a set of secondary contacts to reduce the wear on the main contacts. (oh and yeah.. circuit breakers wear a little each time they are triggered and can end up being flakey, so in older houses it's good practice to inpect the wiring and then renew al breakers..)

I'm not in the USA, so not up to speed with the types of circuit breakers you guys use, but here in europe you get breakers in a single amp rating (eg. nominally 6A, 10A, 16A, 25A, 32A, etc.) but in 'B', 'C' and 'D' trigger type where 'B' breakers are used for plain (household) circuits (up to 16A) and 'C' and 'D' types are used to higher inrush current applications like electric motor start, etc.

Often 'C' are used in household applications like electric boilers, home A/C, etc.

Circuit breakers can often allow up to 10 to 20x the sustained amp rating for inrush current before the (electromagnetric) trigger level is reached.

So in this case I would not expect a 60A inrush current on a 30A breaker to give much issues.. You will likely see the lights dim briefly a little once you flip the switch though

Bye, Arno.

[FST2011]

First I want to thnk everyone for taking the time to share their advice. I'm also sorry for taking so long to reply, And hope you dont take my late reply as a lack of respect. As I explained before my son has down syndrome and often gets sick. Most times we can handle it but when we notice it getting worse we bring him to the hospital to make sure. Then a day after getting home, we found out we have termites (Joy...joy). So I went from excited to start garage to figuring out how to solve termite issue. We are going to try and go the DIY route first cause money is little tight.

Anyhow I have since changed plan alittle and hope someone can take a look and recommend if it sounds good and what items I would need to get.

NEW PLAN:


I dont want to use the sub panel outside (OLD PLAN). Unless someone here says different, I think it might be best to disconnect the old breakers going to outside sub-panel. And disconnect the wires from main box going to old sub-panel. Tape the wires up and not use them.

Then add NEW breaker to main box and just run a NEW line off the main box to NEW sub-panel in garage. If this sounds like a better idea, I would need help with the following...please:

Size of breakers for main box, (How many pole) to feed everything in Sub-panel
Size wire from box to sub-panel
Size of sub-panel...(would 100amp 12 circuit 6 space, work)

then...

Size of breakers for sub-panel, (How many pole)
Size wire from sub-panel to each outlet
Size Outlet

I'm thinking it will be easier (unless you guys think differently) to run the wire from the sub-panel to outlets, on the outside of the sheetrock. Might not look great but with the garage already full with things might be truly difficult to start drilling thru all the beams...again unless you guys think its better to hide the wire.

Side note, I also need advice on what size and what kind of wire to use, to make an extension cable for my welding machine. Would like to make it 25 feet. The extension cable is going be used only if I need to reach something outside of garage. Otherwise, the welder will be connected to an outlet like rest of the machine.


The 3 main things I will connect (but would like to wire with room to grow, just to play safe) are the following:

Everlast 210 EXT
https://www.everlastgenerators.com/prod ... ig-210-ext
I think its 240 1 phase and need 50Amp to play it safe

Husky C602H
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-60-Ga ... /205389936
Think its 240 and need maybe 30Amp

Lotos LTP5000D
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lotos-50-Am ... /205448232
Think its 220 and need 50Amp again to play it safe

I dont think I will be adding more things to garage to run off sub-panel but maybe leave room for at least one more machine.

I hope this makes sense...I was trying to get as much info in this post that might be helpful. I know I might not be using the correct wording for somethings and this might make people nervous, thinking I'm going to kill myself (LOL), no worries...I promise. I just want to buy the items first and will NOT hook anything up until Ive asked you guys how it should go. And once I know the items I need to install in garage, it will make watching some vids online little easier. Cause what I have will relate to same items they installed.

By way, what does Square D 12-circuit 6-space 100Amp...mean anyhow?


Again, the time and effort you guys have shared has been very helpful. Cant thank you guys enough!

[Bill Beauregard]

.............YEAH,



I Believe you need an electrician.

Willie

[Poland308]

.............YEAH,



I Believe you need an electrician.

Willie

You definitely need an electrician. Find one who will tell you exactly what you need and that’s willing to do the work if you buy materials and help. That should defray some of the cost without sacrificing safety. Electrical fires are never cheap.

[FST2011]

I appreciate the advice to get a pro...I truly do. Yes I know electric is very scary and will kill you. I completely understand the risk. I say this cause I'm not getting a pro...I came here hoping to get some advice. Yes, some will reply that the advice is get a pro. Got'it! Like most here, we like to be DIY. With that, the plan was to ask my question here, buy the items, watch few vids online, ask few more questions before I run the wires and then....here is the key part....THEN...have a pro come by and make the connections for me.

Money is extremely tight right now, partly cause we are saving money to get a better adult stroller for my son. So I cannot pay a pro to come here and give me list things to buy. The only thing I can do is pay him to connect everything. And if that is extra $$ but I agree with this part, yes its worth it.

So please if someone can take another look at last post with new idea and let me know any advice...please.

Also side note....if this replied came off wrong, or sounded nasty...please...please dont take it that way. Between taking care of my son, doing research for garage project, and now dealing with termites...I have allot on my plate and just looking for little advice. Thanks again so much and truly apologize if this came off wrong.

[MarkL]

I don't think you can get romex for 100A run, or if you can it will be really expensive and might require you to buy a large roll. So you can either go with 80A and use romex, or run counduit for 100A. You probably need #3 wire so conduit would be 1", so you'll need an electrician who has tools to bend it for you. I didn't see how far the run is, so it's not for sure what size wire you need.

If you surface mount the subpanel it will be a lot easier to mount a 50A welding receptacle next to it. You can just put a short stub of 3/4" conduit and get a few short lengths of #8 or #6 wire instead of having to buy a whole roll of romex.

Your other option, which would probably be cheaper, would be to use the existing 50A run out to the hot tub subpanel to power a 50A receptacle for the welder. Assuming they used the right sized wire. That would allow you to buy a 50A receptacle to replace the existing subpanel out there. That would then allow you to install a smaller subpanel for your compressor and future receptacles using a 50 or 60A breaker in the service panel, which would make the romex cheaper and more easily available.

[clavius]

<Snipped reply...>
Also side note....if this replied came off wrong, or sounded nasty...please...please dont take it that way. Between taking care of my son, doing research for garage project, and now dealing with termites...I have allot on my plate and just looking for little advice. Thanks again so much and truly apologize if this came off wrong.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I took no offense to your reply. Most of us here can 100% identify with being tight on money, too many responsibilities, not enough time, etc. I think we have all been there at one time or another. Lots of us still are, as well.

I don't think most are suggesting you need a pro because they think you'll do something stupid or kill yourself, burn the place down, etc. I for one suggested that mostly because it is REALLY difficult to get a full picture of what you have going on there and what you are really looking to accomplish from written descriptions and photos.

The rotten catch-22 is that the absolute best time to have professional advice on a project like this is now, at the planning stages. I could perhaps offer all sorts of suggestions as to how to approach this based on what I understand from the things you have posted here, and if you took my advice, bought and installed that stuff and called your local electrician to tie in, he's likely to take a look and say "What idiot told you THAT was a good idea?!" He would then proceed to undo some or all of what I advised and then do it his way with his stuff, all on your dime. There are lots of ways to skin these proverbial cats and each electrician will have his own take to some degree.

I would again suggest that if you gave us some idea of about where you are located there may be a forum member that lives nearby that's willing to go by take a look to offer some thoughts. I've done as much for folks near me (I'm in NE Massachusetts, BTW) on other forums, and had it done for me as well. Lots of generous and helpful folks tend to hang out on places like this.

I hope you take this in the spirit it's been offered. We all want to help, but there can be some limit to what we can accomplish remotely.

[Bill Beauregard]

If 4 electricians with extensive training did your project in relay fashion, three of them would tear out what the others did, and start over. While NEC tells you what to do, it is spread throughout a very large book. I could, with enough pictures, give step by step instructions, which you would make numerous errors in following.

If four electricians each saw what a do it yourselfer installed themselves hoping to save money, all four would rip it out, and start over. An uninformed do it yourselfer will make numerous errors. An electrician seeing the errors and energizing it anyway takes on a big liability. It won't go well.

To save money, help the electrician. By "help" I mean remove objects in his way, park your car out of his way, don't force him to park hundreds of feet away, walking many trips to get tools, or materials. If it involves ditch digging, dig the ditch. If he asks for a deep ditch, don't dig a shallow one, and make him dig the rest.

[cj737]

Here's a really good option for you: go to your local County building, and grab all the material to study AND pass the Residential Electrical Code book. This will allow you get a permit, perform the work, have it inspected, and it be correct. Since you are willing to learn and do, then learn the proper way by the book, and do it to code. This serves purposes: 1, it will be safe. 2, your homeowners insurance won't disqualify your claim if you ever have an issue. And 3, when it comes to resell your home, the work will be permitted and will pass the Home Inspection.

If you DIY it, with no permit, your insurance and resale issues WILL surface. 220v is NOTHING to tinker with. Distances, exterior/interior wiring, heights, distances, and wire gauge all matter. Yes, a competent person can learn to do it, but for the sake of your well-being and your family's, go get it permitted (whether you do it, or a "Pro" helps you). Their License includes insurance if they screw up. A Permit guarantees that it will be covered by your Homeowner's Policy. These are not trivial matters.

[A36]

If you can fish a cable from your basement to your garage without going outside the cheapest way out is to use Romex NM-B 6/3 cable. That’s 6 gauge / 3 conductor (4 counting the ground wire). Install a GE sub panel (load center) in the garage. 100 amp 12 circuit is fine. The sub panel does not need to have a main breaker. Install a new 50A double pole breaker in your main panel to feed the garage panel. The black and red wires from the 50A breaker are wired to the subpanel main lugs. The white (neutral) is wired from the neutral bar in your main panel to the neutral bar in the sub panel. The ground is wired from the neutral bar in your main panel to the ground bar in the subpanel. Normally the neutral and ground are bonded in main panels however they are NOT bonded in a sub panel. Neutral and ground are kept electrically separated in a sub panel. This is to avoid parallel neutral current in a ground conductor. Once the sub panel is in place, you can add circuits as needed. 120V outlets would use a single pole 20A breaker, 230V outlets would use a double pole breaker sized according to the load/wire. Compressor would be 20A, welder would be 50A. Use can use the left over 6/3 cable to wire the 50A welder outlet. You will only need the black, red and ground conductor for most 230V shop applications. Neutral (white) is unused except for things like ovens & clothes dryers. While this might not be the ideal setup, it will work as long as you do not draw heavy loads at the same time or you will trip the 50A breaker in the main panel. If you want more load capacity, you will need to go to THHN wire in conduit sized accordingly. 3 gauge wire for 100A. 3 gauge is heavy wire and hard to work with as well as more expensive. Another thing to note is if your power is single or 3 phase. If you are serviced by a 3 phase system (only 2 are used in a residential dwelling) the voltage between phases will only be 208V. Your compressor motor has to be wired for 208V. If you live in a big city, most likely it will be 3 phase, if you are in a rural area single phase. Ask your utility company to be sure. Lastly, size your wire according to the load and your breakers according to the wire. Make all connections tight. Turn off the hot tub breakers and abandon the circuit in place. Also, fill the main panel cover unused opening with the plastic covers made for that purpose.