[92 GSR-4]

Hello to all,


Let me first give a brief introduction on myself and my intentions. I am an auto enthusiast and have been turning wrenches for about a decade. I am an officer in the military and like to spend as much time as I can in the garage at my house (which isn't very much!). I mostly deal with engine building and replacing parts as they break, but I have been eyeballing projects that need fabrication skills more and more.

In the past I have generally been a wrench-turner only, as I had friends and connections that could weld for me if needed. However, I recently picked up a new project car that will need some welding on the body and I plan to fabricate some parts for the engine such as SS or aluminum intercooler charge piping, engine mounts and an exhaust. This requires me to step up my game and purchase my own welder.

I'm looking for a good welder to use at home, but I've been having a hard time pinpointing a specific model/brand to use. I will primarily be welding steel, aluminized steel and maybe some angle iron, and I want to be able to weld stainless steel (think SS exhausts, tubular headers, etc.) and aluminum (piping mostly). I doubt my power requirements will be much, since most automotive fabrication jobs deal with thin material, so I'm hoping to find a model that will fit my needs.

Oh, did I mention this is for home use? I have no idea what the difference is between 3-phase power and such, but I know that I'll have to wire-in a 220V outlet in my garage. I am willing to take this task, as long as I can run it from my existing breaker box.

I've spent most of my time looking for a TIG welder, but I'm not entirely sure what model I should buy. I don't want to cheap out, but I don't want to spend $5k. I'll limit myself to a purchase below $2K, but would be ecstatic to spend under $1k. I'm looking for a good condition used machine.

Models I have looked at are Miller synchrowave, and some Lincoln models. Most of the trade welders I talk to recommend those brands.

Any advice?

[weldin mike 27]

Hi there.

Everlast make resonable quality entry level welders. Tigs and smallish migs. Hobart make some nice machines too. For what you mentioned, an ac/dc tig seem to fit the bill. The everlast 200 (?) dx seems nice. Miller diversion 180. Lincoln also make a basic entry level tig. The last two have built in. preprogrammed settings but the Everlast is a full featured unit.

I hope I havent confused you.
Mick

[Otto Nobedder]

Hello, and welcome.

I'm a big fan of Lincoln products, though I must confess to a bit of "brand loyalty" over any logical reasons. (The old lincoln deisel pipeliners were practically bulletproof.)

You can't go wrong with a Miller product, as they have probably the best customer support in the industry.

However, as you're looking for a project welder, as opposed to a daily wage-earner, and as you said will be welding light sections for automotive projects, I must say the Everlast 200DX has been getting excellent revues here, including a ringing endorsement from the site's author. (Correct me if I'm wrong--he may have reviewed the 225?)

Any comeptent electrician can add a 220V single-phase circuit from your main breaker box to your garage, as long as you have two blank spaces in the panel. Actually, there are ways around this if your panel is full. All you'll need to know are the power requirements of the welder you've selected, and the type of plug the machine is furnished with. (Some will come with a bare wire end, and you can select the connector to suit your needs. The electrician can advise.)

BTW, stay away from three-phase for a residential installation. It will require a re-wire from the pole, and is not practical unless you are in a commercial-zoned area and intend to start a small business.

My 2 cents.

Steve

[92 GSR-4]

Mick and Steve,


Thanks for the advice, I appreciate any help I can get. I'm a little confused but that's why I'm here!

I strongly considered an Everlast welder, but never bit the bullet due to some advice from a good friend of mine who insisted that I would be making a mistake if I didn't buy a brand name welder. Having said that, how could I go wrong? Especially since I won't be abusing it much. The website review was on the Everlast PowerPro 256.

Here's a few local machines I was looking at on Craigslist: http://savannah.craigslist.org/search/t ... k=&maxAsk=

Mentioning the 1-phase power makes sense to me now, since I've seen several people mention in their ads that their machines are NOT 3-phase. Otherwise, I understand the concept of adding the 220V 1-phase to my garage. I did the research a few months ago and I have both the available space in the box and the means to do it.

What's the difference between a normal tig and an inverter tig machine?

[weldin mike 27]

Hi,

Heres an extra tip. Talk to people who have a product. not people who just think they know. You will hear more bad than good from know it alls. I have heard very good things about Everlast, I own the power arc 200, so dont disregard untill you get it from the horses mouth. So to speak.

mick

[winky]

I've just ordered an Everlast 200DX ... when I looked at comparable welders made by Miller, Lincoln and Hobart the price difference was just too big ... I did a lot of research so I'm pretty confident of my purchase. The new 2012 units should arrive in this country this week (I'm hoping) I could have taken delivery on last years model sooner but the new model has improvements and new features ... like pre flow, arc force, high frequency adjustments, a better torch with a rheostat and a better foot pedal. Everlast may not be a major name brand yet but the company is developing quit a following and is building a sound reputation. After I receive my new welder and get it all set up and start using it I will post things about it. I would love to pick up another Miller or Lincoln but I simply can't afford even their smaller TIG units and the beauty of the 200DX is that it is both GTAW-P and SMAW.

Inverter is the latest technology ... early welders were transformer units heavier, bulkier and drew a lot more power ... my wife hates when I use my old Miller transformer unit because she sees the power bill.

I just had respond to your post because I'm excited about the new unit I'm looking to take delivery on and it gives me an opportunity to brag a little

[Otto Nobedder]

What's the difference between a normal tig and an inverter tig machine?

In the simplest form, an inverter does with transistors what a transformer machine does with a Tesla coil.

In practical terms, an inverter is lighter, wastes far less power (as heat), and is capable of more complex waveform control for very thin section welds, especially in AC mode for aluminum. It has far more adjustibility. It also costs more to fix when it breaks.

Given my choice, I'll take an inverter over a transformer (welding aluminum at 400 hz is sweet), so with no personal experience with the Everlast, I'll bow out of the brand debate.

Steve

[92 GSR-4]

No brand debate here, I just need something to work for me!

I have been researching the Everlast series though, mainly due to their affordability. The Powertig 185 or 200 looks like it will do what I want and hit around the $1000 mark. One feature, though, that I'm kind of hoping for is having the "Mig Gun" attachment (GMAW). I'm going to be welding on the body of a car and also building an exhaust underneath...is a strictly Tig machine going to accomplish what I want? I've seen most ships using a Mig welder for those jobs....but I want to weld stainless and aluminum as well, so I might have to sacrifice the convenience of a MIG attachment for a Tig that can do everything. Thanks for the advice!

[Otto Nobedder]

TIG will do everything you want, (big "but" coming,) but for auto body panels there's nothing quite like a MIG gun for speed and efficiency. Also, it requires less skill to do body panels with a MIG in terms of shrinkage and distortion.

If my budget allowed me only one of the two, I'd take TIG every time for versatility, but the ease of use with MIG is hard to ignore for your needs.

I'm sure I've clarified this like stirring a mud puddle.

Steve

[delraydella]

I would say get a mig, too, for what you need to do. With a spoolgun attachment you can do aluminum and stainless. I weld a lot of aluminum tubing with a mig spoolgun.

There is one slight problem that some may bring up using mig for aluminum and that is a "cold start" that you won't get with tig.

[92 GSR-4]

Don't get me wrong, I'm probably more "knowledgeable" than your average newbie, in that I know the "difference" between Mig and Tig. In my mind, I see Mig accomplishing 90% of what I want to do. I can also see Mig being easier to use if I needed to get into tight spaces, crawl under a car to tack an exhaust, etc., and I've only seen Mig welders used for bodywork - even on TV. It's just the added versatility of Tig, the "sexy" welds that can be performed on stainless and aluminum, etc.

I've seen both welders in action, and I know Tig welders require more skill (maybe not MORE, but skills that must be developed), whereas the Mig welder just "works". I have been looking for a cheap Mig welder on Craigslist and there have been a few in the $300-$500 range. I might just start there and move into Tig later.

Where would you guys recommend I start with Mig? What kind of power range and capabilities do I need? I'm not familiar with welding aluminum and stainless with a Mig and I sort of have a bad impression of what the weld quality would be like using a Mig to do my aluminum.

Maybe I am stirring a mud puddle

Thanks for the help guys!

[weldin mike 27]

Hey,

Look at jodys review of the Hobart MVP. Everyone seems think its a good thing. He even offered a special deal in conjunction with Hobart and Welding tips. Dunno if its finished. Search it on the main wtt page.

Mick.

[Otto Nobedder]

Automotive work has a tough range of requirements to meet. You'll need to be able to weld from 24 ga. for some body panels up to about 3/16" if you fab motor mounts or shock hangers. It's nice to be able to do stainless for exhaust systems. Custom work may require aluminum capability. While one machine will do all of the above, there are different "ideal" gasses for each, though some compromises are possible.

I'd consider e-mailing the "Powerblock" guys from the SpikeTV shows and ask what machine they use. Look up that machine online, and use it's specifications as a guideline when selecting your own. They seem to use the same machine for almost everything they MIG weld.

BTW, I'm not particularly impressed with the welding skills I've seen on those shows, particularly on roll cages.

Steve

[delraydella]

I've seen a lot of people that think they can just buy a spoolgun , pull the trigger and all at once they are great aluminum weldors....it doesn't work that way with mig aluminum! Many people that might be perfect with mig steel get really frustrated with a spoolgun...it's a whole different feel and a whole different sound. it's possible to get perfect stack-o-dimes looking welds with a spoolgun but it takes a lot of practice, the settings and tip stickout have to be dead nuts on for the different thicknesses, the gas settings may have to go a little higher sometimes, and the material must be very clean, just like with tig.

I actually prefer welding aluminum with a mig spoolgun. I know some might disagree with this, but I feel I have much better control using the spoolgun.

[Otto Nobedder]

Hey, del,

Ever use a push/pull?

Steve

[delraydella]

No, I never have.

I've looked at them and did once consider getting one but it was out of my price range at the time.. Actually, I forgot all about them till you mentioned it!

[92 GSR-4]

Interestingly enough, I've spent the little free time I've had in the past two days looking at wire welding aluminum. Weldingtipsandtricks.com really has some awesome videos, tutorials and reviews!


Anyways, there's a guy local to me with a 110V Lincoln wire welder - no gas. He claims to have just finished his resto project with it. Here's the link: http://savannah.craigslist.org/tls/3064288988.html

I think this will do most of what I want, and for just a couple hundred bucks, can I really go wrong? When I check it out Monday (because I have to work Sunday ) I will pull the side panel off and see if it will reverse polarity. As long as it does, I can get aluminum wire for it, correct?

I'm thinking this might be a decent starter welder that will allow me to weld in the patch panels I need on the car, and also maybe some exhaust work. With some serious practice I might even be able to weld some aluminum pipes.

Suggestions?

I'm still on the lookout for a Hobart/Everlast/Lincoln/Miller Mig/Tig 220V but this might get me out from behind a computer and in front of some metal. Thanks for all the suggestions so far!

[weldin mike 27]

Hey There,

I dont believe that you can get fluxcored aluminium wire for a gasless welder. Maybe Im wrong but Al is all about clean. Not something gasless wire is known for. The machine may be a good welder but not for Al i think.

Mick

[FluxCore]

I'm a retired Navy Senior Chief....Nuc submarines and mechanical engineering-then and now...40 years of it, so I know a little about shop tools and shop work.....And yeah, I've built/repaired many a car....so here is my $.02 worth.

MIG.....For you, perhaps the Hobart 210MVP with gas bottle, or equal.

For all you intend, MIG is the all in one solution....It's a simple squirt gun, but it still offers challenges if you seek challenges....It's like black and white photography-you can spend your life mastering it, but just a few hours/minutes learning how to do it satisfactorily.

I say Hobart because Hobart is a super solid company that offers very high quality MIG welders for the money, plus they really stand behind them....I say the 201MVP because it's dual voltage, so you can use it for most projects anywhere you have 110VAC...And when you decide to try alum, the spoolgun is only 200 bucks.

Welcome aboard!:)

P.S. I own the Hobart 210MVP and use it daily when I can find reason to. It's pure pleasure

[92 GSR-4]

[RESOLVED]

Just an update for all of you who gave me advice.


I'm sure many of you will cringe when I say this, but I ended up buying a "Real Gear" 140 Amp mig welder with a gas bottle. Here's why:

I decided to give a Lincoln 140HD (the kind they sell at Lowe's and Home Depot) a try since they are one of the top name brands, plus it would plug into my 110V outlet existing in the garage. I went to the Home Depot and started asking a few questions about the welder just to ensure it had all the features I wanted and got into a conversation with the department employee. He asked me what I was wanting the welder for, and as it turned out, he restores old army jeeps and other vehicles and since I told him I was going to be welding in some patch panels in my car he suggested I get a welder with continuous voltage control, like the Lincoln 140C, not the "tapped" controls like the model they had at the store. Then he suggested the Real Gear welder because he had been using his for years without issue. I ended up researching it online and decided to get the deal at Praxair for $400. It came with the welder, cart, auto-darkening mask, and a few other bits. I bought a bottle of gas and some mig wire while I was there.

Now, I know the consensus here will be that it is "Chinese garbage", but so far it has been working really well and I have been laying down some great welds. From the research I did online before I bought it I found the same story on every forum: someone would ask about the welder and then a whole flame-fest came from the Miller/Lincoln/Hobart guys who had never tried this particular machine. Then someone who actually had the machine would chime in and say that it was a great welder for them. I also found out that it is almost a carbon copy of the Lincoln 140C and the company actually got sued over it. I'm not sure what the outcome was, but the welder is being sold legally so I guess that's good. The machine uses Lincoln parts like the rollers, spool gun (when I buy one), etc. and uses all the standard consumables so I won't be looking all over the place for parts.

I went to the local exhaust shop and they were polite enough to let me grab a bunch of scrap metal from their bin. So I have been welding exhaust pipe and some 1/4 metal plates together and learning how to dial in the voltage and all. I also welded some body mounts for a buddy's truck with it. I probably have about 2-3 hours of welding under my belt. So far, so good. I'm glad that I have a welder in the garage that can do what I need. Thanks to all for the advice on this forum. I'll be looking for a TIG eventually, but that's in the future.

My next question is whether spool-gun welding aluminum will accomplish my goals for fabbing-up intercooler piping. They need to be able to hold 50+ psi. I'll be researching it. Thanks again!

[Otto Nobedder]

Glad to hear you've chosen a machine that will suit your needs for some time.

The cheap Chinese crap mostly comes from Harbor Freight. Many Chinese manufacturers over the last 10 years or so realize the western markets have a certain quality expectation, and have raised their standards accordingly. They are aware that the difference in labor costs allow them to produce a quality product at a lower price than the western brands, and that we'll pay a little more for a better product.

Of course, the co.s that make the Harbor Freight stuff will always have a market. As P.T. Barnum is reputed to have said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

As to the spool-gun, yes, you can accomplish what you want with it, but you'll want to practice a lot before building finished parts. Intercoolers are generally thin-wall tubing, and it takes finesse to weld this with MIG *or* TIG. With either process, cleanliness is critical.

At 50 PSI, I'm guessing you're looking at a single wastegate, after the intercooler? I've heard of (but never seen) a dual wastegate system, where a gate upstream of the intercooler brings pressure down to 20 PSI, with the obvious benefit of lowering intercooler pressure, and the not-so-obvious one of dropping the temperature at the intercooler inlet, reducing the intercooler workload.

Just some thoughts.

Steve

[92 GSR-4]

Steve,

Thanks for the response. I bought my welder at Praxair who is also a Lincoln dealer and I believe the also sell Miller. The benefit was that I was able to open up a Lincoln welder and then compare it to the Real Gear welder. They looked the same to me.

As for the turbo setup, I won't need it to actually hold 50 PSI on the car I'm building, but that's what I will pressure test it to (with my air compressor). I think you're confusing wastegates with blow-off valves. The goal is to force as much air (PSI) into the motor as possible. Once you get off the throttle and the butterfly valve in the throttle-body slaps shut, the blow off valve (also known as a compressor bypass valve) releases the pressure out of the intake system before it surges backwards towards the turbo and causes "compressor surge" which can damage the turbo. The wastegate opens and diverts exhaust from traveling through the turbine side of the turbo in order to limit the speed of the turbo's rotation in order to control boost (PSI). I've seen double blow-off valves AND wastegates used before. Just depends on what you need for your particular power level. In my case, I only need one of each.

Sorry, I'm not trying to turn this into a car forum, haha. Here's a video of my AWD Eclipse. Currently running at 26 PSI and making somewhere in the neighborhood of 450 wheel HP. The car I'm building is a 89' Turbo Mirage with the same motor as the Eclipse. I'll be doing the bodywork, intercooler and exhaust for that car with my welder.

http://youtu.be/iCkxwj4qQ-M

[Otto Nobedder]

Quite right.

As mom used to say, "Do what I meant, not what I said!"

With Praxair as your source, service, parts, and consumables should be no problem.

[Rbeckett]

GSR,
You have a serious need for multiple welders actually. Sheet metal is really suited for MIG while intercoolers and sharge piping really lend themselves to TIG, but motor mounts really work best in thick section materials with stick. Most of what you wish to do is not very difficult, but will require some practice to become good at. Welding sheet metal is fairly easy once you master the skill required to create smooth weld profiles. Making engine mounts is another issue entirely. There are some issues that need to be adressed such as proper material selection, preperation and penetration. Building an engine mount for a souped up motor is not a beginners task for a lot of reasons, primarily your safety and that of others who share the road or track with you. If you have the time I would strongly suggest that you attend a local community college welding course and complete as a minimum stick and mig welding classes and tig later on. The time you spend in school will be offset by the cost of the materials and consumables that you use in class. Usually your tuition and lab fees are also covered by the GI bill type of ed benefits too. I promise you will use more stuff than you pay for in lab fees while your in school. The hands on time under supervision of a qualified welder will greatly improve your skill and shorten your learning curve considerably. Once you have completed classes, then you will have a much better idea of what machines to buy to accomplish the tasks you have planned. Hope this helps guide you in a direction that will save you some money and time, as well as help you become a better welder in a shorter period of time.
Bob

[92 GSR-4]

Hey Bob,

You have a serious need for multiple welders actually.

Thanks for the bad news!

I've known I'd need a TIG/stick for a while, but since I have plans on mostly welding steel in the near future and MIG welders are so easy to use and universal I figured I couldn't go wrong. As far as motor mounts go, I won't be needing to weld them in this particular project because I can get a set that will fit the motor being used, but even still all the motor mounts are use steel less than 1/4" thick, so why wouldn't I be able to weld them with my welder? The last car we did, my friend (experienced welder and machinist) MIG welded the motor mounts for that motor and didn't have any issues. Maybe he did stick weld it and I'm mistaken.

As far as the TIG is concerned, I would much rather have that, but the cost is high for one and I would need to rewire the garage. I plan to do it eventually, but for now the MIG is going to have to work. I can still weld the aluminum, right? I'm just hoping that I can get some good practice and produce welds that can hold up to the abuse.

I have looked into some welding classes as well, but right now my work schedule is crazy. I just about have zero free time during the week like it is, plus a wife and 5-month-old child. So unless I can find some very limited Saturday classes, it's not going to happen. I also do not qualify for the G.I. bill right now since the Army paid for my college up front before I went in, so it'll be another few years before I work off that time-debt and then become eligible (supposed to get my master's with it if stay in the Army). I have been trying to compensate by reading all the articles I can find on welding, watching the weldingtipsandtricks YouTube videos, and practicing in my garage. I can say right now that I am 100% ready to fabricate exhausts on cars. Anything structural, however, I would be a little weary just yet.

To all - thanks for all the advice! I'm having a great time learning this awesome trade and I hope I can produce some quality work in the future!